Inger Leemans: A Cultural Historic Perspective on Beauty Standards and Pornography

My name is Doortje Smithuijsen and in this podcast I will be investigating a static capital, because next to, well, the more known uh forms of capital like social capital and cultural capital, there's also something that is called aasthetic capital, and it's sort of, well it it captures the way we look and the way these looks sort of define our class and our chances in society, and well due to the rise of social media and the increased visibility of our physical. appearance, this static capital is becoming increasingly determined for our social opportunities, so therefore I would really like to investigate this form of capital with all kinds of researchers, some are from the view, some are from different areas of this society, and together in this podcast we will sort of investigate what is this static capital and how does it shape our society today? welcome to a new episode, from the connected world podcast, my name is Doortje Smithuijsen and in this podcast we are investigating uh ascetic capital and the role it plays in our society and today I am joined by Inger Leemans, she is professor of cultural history uh here at the vu in Amsterdam and she just told me that the best way to describe her work is by the term embodied culture, yeah maybe you could start by telling me what do you mean by this? yeah sure. um and thank you for inviting me to the podcast um yeah i'm a cultural historian so and culture is of course a very very um complex and also interesting but also uh quite hybrid uh concept quite broad yeah going broad yeah so that's great for as a historian i can research whatever i want in a way uh but what i'm interested in how culture is embodied indeed how culture is expressed by uh the way people move, how they practice, I'm interested in the history of emotions, in the history of smell, in the history of sexuality, so um, the term embodied culture is not something that I have in invented at all, it's a term that is uh used a lot uh to think about the practices, actually how important practices are in culture, so culture is not something only of the mind for. but it's also something that comes with the way we act in the in the world and that fascinates me. yeah, well so it's still very broad, it's quite narrowing but still broad. well of course in this podcast we are investigating a set of capital, so the way are the way we look, the way we are perceived by others, shapes, our roles in society, our chances, are well values, i guess, is this something that you well tend to? research as well? yeah, not so it's interesting because I've been researching the history of capitalism for instance, so I'm interested uh in capital in, maybe, maybe in different way than you express it now, I'm interested in the way aesthetics works or how cultural ideals uh are developed, mostly I researched the 17th and 18th century, some early modernist, so many of the... probably or the the input that will give in this uh during this podcast will come from my background background in that um but yeah sure as a cultural history i'm very interested in how people uh communicates and shape ideals yeah and when i mean this is quite a broad question but maybe it's nice to start with when you compare your research period with the the time now when it comes to ascetic. capital or the way we present ourselves, what are some big differences you would say? yeah, in a way, I think aesthetic capital has always uh been there and also always has been recognized that um uh shaping yourself through the way you look uh, but also the the clothes that you wear for instance, what has been very important, I think in terms of changes that during the early modern period you see what is called by historians the consumer revolution uh developing and that means that people start to invest uh much more money in just basically acquiring goods uh and expressing their value uh through the yeah just say the stuff that surrounds them uh and for that of course you need enough capital yourself uh to be able to buy all that, but you also see that this consumption uh revolution is connected to what historians call an industrial industrious revolution and that is a change. in the way we work, so what you see is that people start to work harder, so they have more money so they can buy more things that they um can present themselves with, and then what you see happening in 17, 18th century is these fantastic paintings that people make of themselves, from their families, in their homes, surrounded with lavish clothes, teacups or things like... that and then that with that express who they are, um, not only in terms of wealth, but also in terms of identity, yeah, and like good taste, yeah, good taste is very important, maybe in a class sort of way also, yeah, yeah, and so the whole idea that you sort of express your identity through not only the capital that that you've acquired, but also the things that you had or the had the luxury or visible consumption. in a way, this is so funny, so actually the the people living in the 17th century were not so different from us now walking around with kind of certain brands or wanting to show a certain way of living through our consumption, it wouldn't have been a brand as in firms, yeah although you could say oh uh you have of course uh some kind of um like a painter yeah painter or chinese porcelan uh for instance but it would have been very... different from the medieval period, so I'm studying the 17 and 18th century, which is actually this moment of change, but this where where we start to do what we do now, so it's in very interesting to to research why did we do that, why did we become so invested in um in capitalism or in in consumption, and that's something that i i find a very interesting question, because it's not something that comes naturally, no and so if you for instance in uh medieval period would ask see how people would self-express or see their identity expressed, it much it would much more be for instance through lineage, through family, yeah, so where are you from, and not so much, what are the clothes that you're wearing, what do you buy, yeah, it's quite interesting what you actually say also that people start to work harder so they can buy more things to show, it it when you when you say it like that, it it it sounds is quite absurd really, like why would you bother? yeah, why would you bother? and what's the answer to that? why would they bother? yeah, but it's yeah, that's a very large question, actually, it's also they're seduced into it, so i've been researching the history uh of the stock market and also of the uh boores buildings, so the stock market, the market buildings that were were constructed also here in Amsterdam for instance, and you can see that um the these buildings were built to actually really attract people to it and and make them invest in buying and selling because it's not so I think if you would ask this question to historan of economics the would say well people start to buy when they have uh accumulated enough money so it's all the question of about that supply and demand but I as a cultural historian really think no it also has a lot. to do with the mindset and with the ideals that you shape and with the fact that indeed you're sort of surrounded in the system that is trying to seduce you of course but this this is so true i feel also when you look at the stock market right now it's everyone wants to be an investment banker themselves you know downloading apps on which you can yeah maybe even with a small amount of money get the feeling that you are part of the... big system, yeah, sure, but there used to be a lot of barriers against that behavior, think about religion, think about the idea that uh, wealth is actually something of this earth which can block you from going to heaven or think about the moral issues, is it really a good thing to uh to express all that wealth or to accumulate uh wealth or to be invested in the things uh that? maybe yeah or dependent even and so these moral issues or there were a lot of moral and religious barriers also in the 16th and 17th century but some somehow and uh they broke through it yeah that broke through all those barriers yeah and when it comes to uh the aesthetics of of people the way the they present themselves what are the big difference you would say when you compare the 16th or 17th century with the time we live in? Ooh, um, continuity, maybe, so maybe not every day something new, uh, more... group recognizability, so probably you could, it was easier to see to which group someone belongs, now it's easier to navigate, although although of course we still have a lot of and um barriers between the one group and definitely, we talked about that with - chisel in the kaipers actually in the first episode, yeah yeah in terms of body aesthetics here in uh in western Europe uh whiteness uh so... had uh not an ideal of having a bronze uh uh skin, but the whitest skin would have been the better. yeah, in terms of the female body, things were quite could be quite different, so yeah, more of a lobtious body uh, for females was uh, was an aesthetic standard, is that true though? yes, i think so, in, well, again, because i usually feel like this is something people say a lot, you know, they're used. to be periods where where where fat women were seen as very beautiful and think of reubens you know and i feel like yeah there's this one painter from from belgium who turns out to have painted some bigger women but when i look at like mainly the way women are portrayed throughout history it feels like there's basically this ideal of being a slim woman with oh yeah large bress no i would so it's it's great question uh and also great criticism because we shouldn't indeed uh um base this argument solally on the on and I wouldn't use the word fat actually I would say fulupges because um a fat as a category is also something that really there's a wonderful book on the history of fat but I'm destracting now uh about how um for instance also heavier men uh we're seen. that that was an ideal to be a heavy man, which was a concerned, if you think about Martin Luther who was really a heavy man, was seen as a as gravitas, as something that could bring in um yeah intellectuh as well, um, so fet is a word I think that we have started to use uh in a in a different way, um, it depends also um and so I think in literature and and in um uh paintings uh the volupturous body is is is praised, it shouldn't be too grotesque uh so there there's a and also quite interestingly but that's an observation that i got for instance from uh the uh pornography that i've studied a big breasts are not a huge issue until like the 19th century so oh wow Yeah, so if you look at erotic and pornographic uh depictions, then the women are not like huge, but uh, also certainly not the slim um women that we have now uh in fashion uh, but the press are not, that's so interesting, do do you have any idea what what changed change that? um, no, actually. It's quite interesting because it's it's interesting actually from from what you say i i sort of think like okay so the women got smaller but the breast got bigger yeah yeah yeah it's the accentuation maybe yeah yeah the accentuation of the hips and the and the breasts and like a more extreme kind of figure also maybe yeah yeah i think it's it might be that yeah it's also a body that can be shaped more if you think about the sort of, yeah, um, things, but yeah, I'm not the historian of fashion enough, to to answer that question, it's also, it has to do probably with uh, the ideal of women and fertility, but um, yeah, probably, yeah, but it always struck me that uh, so breasts are described as as uh, yeah, in a way things... you can hand hold in two hands, but uh, yeah, like in the bible, I guess, yeah, exactly. I'm also wondering, like, for example, when I look around today, I see a world in which people tend to more and more sort of look at their own physique, their faces, especially, um, through a camera, yeah, and also through a filter, uh, we we also had a cosmetic surgeon here in the podcast, and he actually told me that, "a lot of people come to his clinic and ask him, show them, show him a picture of themselves with a filter and say, can you make me look like this? yeah, and uh, you've also done research uh, I think..." about uh the way bodies are perceived uh as well the way this is influenced by the way they are mediated and i was wondering we already talked a little bit about the way bodies and people were portrayed in this centuries that you study yeah in paintings mostly do you feel like for example the fact that people are more shown in paintings changes the way well that's aistetic ideals in real life? um, it changes a lot if you see a self-reflection or a reflection of a person that is like you, so uh, for instance, um, lyn hunt wrote a wonderful book about um uh the um sort of the the rise of empathy through the so when in indeed in the early modern period "not only in paintings but also in prints we have more and more portraits and people start to read more books uh about people that look like them so it's not so much uh one-on-one it's not your self-reflection that does something with the way we look at ourselves but also with the way we look at uh other people so many things can be set in motion so both self-reflection thinking about identity as formed by your your uh appearances uh, but it can also be about how you look at other people and whether you have more you have the you create the ability to place yourself in the in the feet of uh of someone else, so um and that's described also for the early modern period indeed as a as an effect, what happens now with all those filters and the the corrections that you can even do, but that is completely beyond what uh what was happening in the 178 yeah did people use filters in some way in the 17th century yeah you have a lot of um artists who portray themselves somewhere in their uh in their painting and sometime that's through a a mirror or uh in some kind of other reflections so yeah yeah that happened um but i can also imagine that people want to look a little bit better, yes on the paint picture than they looks in real life, yeah absolutely, yeah, yeah, do you know what what was the what was the changes that were often requested? ooh, i think if you think for instance about medieval depictions of people, then they show themselves as completely devout, right? place within actually the context of Christ being born or anything like that, yeah, so that devoutness you the sort of uh... array from your uh appearance um, i'm just thinking about there's a great example of um uh lucretia from america who was a dutch author literary author from the 18th century right at the moment actually uh where uh literary authors were depicted more and more in the volumes that uh were published uh by them so had if you would buy um "I don't know, a book of Shakespeare uh, you wouldn't have a picture of Shakespeare in that book, but later in the 17 and 18th century this became more common, so authors started to be represented and uh, they became a person, they became public persona, uh, and Lee great of America was very angry at some point because the publisher had published uh, engraving of her with an open decolate, ah, this is interesting." she was just really interesting, so there she requested to have the whole print run retaken and uh and changed again and they changed engraving with sort of a nice uh layover so you couldn't see her breast because she didn't want to see be seen as like a sexy author yes yes she has so the idea of being steamed author and then this open the got it would was not to her like oh this is so interesting this feels like a discussion that could also be going on right now Yeah, yeah, we have a great historian lea um researches uh the self-representation of literary authors, oh how interesting, I love it, you you also did a lot of study uh on pornography, yes, um, I'm just curious firstly, what interests you in pornography? It's not a very common name, something calling myself the first Dutch porno pornology, I would easily say that, yeah, yeah, yeah. um, yeah, why uh, I was studying Deutch language and literature uh as a student in Utricht, and uh, so we read a lot of of course highbrow literature, but uh, at some point I re wanted to sort of learn more about what people would maybe also from other social classes uh would read or read more as a day-to-day lecture uh instead of uh epic uh um poetry for instance so that's um why i started that but when uh i started to reach pornographic and erotic literature of the early modern period it became fascinated by what people can do when they write about love and and sex. and what that breaks open, so um uh, in the early modern period pornography was used as a way to think about what humans are, how they uh communicate, also to open up for criticism about the church, about uh politics, so it was really much really like an open space to absolutely, yeah, maybe uh, write about more than just sex or yes, or through the sex or through... uh uh thinking about sexual desire and sexual lust uh these authors try to convey other points, so for instance about how how important sexual lust is for people, and that if that was that was a uh an revolution in the early mon period, it's also called the first sexual revolution because at the idea that we as humans are driven by these low desires. for us is sort of a given uh as a 21st century people, but um in 17 and 18th century this was blasphemy and um a really radical uh thought, yeah so it this materialism uh or materialistic view on what drives people um completely forgoing also the aesthetic or the the religious ideals or moral. um, yeah, was seen as a very naked truth, yeah, and so pornographys use pornography to actually um argument for this and uh showing that, okay, if i i write this sexual story, your lust is around, so i'm right, even with all your, your moral and your religious barriers or with your high ideals about what drives human beings, no, this is what it's a very like primal way to connect with your readers. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's no arguing against your own sexual and and and this pornography that you studied from the early modern centuries, is this, is this all in writing, is this also visual, uh, most of it is in writing, uh, much comes in the form of novels or in dialogues uh, and but there was also visual uh pornography, only um, much of that has been has not been preserved well, um, uh, that's the paradox that the things that we read read. then uh look at most are often the first things that go yeah i guess yeah yeah probably yeah yeah so all those tech messages and uh and selfies probably not a lot of them you never i feel like right now everything is preserved yeah but that that's that's the other thing right this idea of continuity and and that it's so hard to get rid of um images that are captured uh of yourself uh that's that's a change as well well it shapes a society so at large i think and and and when you look at at i mean this pornography like it was mostly in writing you say it it serves a different goal i guess than maybe or maybe a more layered goal than it does now and of course now when we look at pornography i mean there's some pornography in writing i guess but mostly it's yeah most visual in visual in video and whatever what do you think of what what are the big differences between? in writing from that time and visual pornography that we have now um well what struck me when i started to read it is humor so uh a lot of these novels are are actually quite funny okay as well and whereas we are sort of and this is also maybe about aesthetics we're we're maybe used to thinking then when things become humoristic or grotesque then uh they lose their um their uh sexual uh interest or had that there is a sort of a conflict between uh arousing sexual lust and being funny and that's absolutely not the case in the early mornen uh poetry actually seen as a two-sided uh uh coin so humor of course also works as a sort of a direct claim to your uh body it forgoes the mind mind in the in a way and you have to laugh about jokes that you really think are not the best jokes ever but still. uh so that that's one um and why do you think I mean I feel like uh the porn people consume can say a lot about the society like? like what are the taboos etc. what do you feel it says that there's not much room for humor left right now in the porn industry? yeah, well i it would be far for me to make that claim too large right? because i i i couldn't speak for the whole of the pornography industry that's probably also the porn humor uh challenges probably yeah yeah definitely yeah lots of it it's comp and that's the difference uh uh with your... modern period as well, we have so many specializations, had people know where to go because they are interested in a certain kind of uh uh sexual interest, yeah, so in that way it's less of a mass product maybe even than in the early modern days, i guess no, no, yeah, i don't know, it's it is a mass product uh, but everyone goes to their own separate corner, yeah uh, so there's much more compartimentalization about, are you interested in gape on? so uh and those distinctions came yeah build up through the 19th century uh when it became more like a mess uh product but yeah so the visual and the textual do different things sexual walks through so many different motions and has a longer uh uh duration i think than visual pornography it's much more shorter yeah whereas uh in the 17th century these were quite fast novels, yeah, yeah, yeah, they could go on for pages and pages and the pages, so um, yeah, people don't have the time for that now, i guess satisfactioning, but also aesthetics, so the fact that um, a lot of them uh, the bodies are brushed and polished and uh, dehaired and yeah, yeah, so that's different as well um yeah, i think that early mon pornography maybe even consciously um made the body more grotesque and not so aesthetic because it is um more inspiring and lust evoking to see a body that seems to be real instead of a body that is completely brown and polished and and made into what even looks like more a machine than than a you. sounds kind of woke really yeah, century pornography is very right roke, but i mean also for the women uh in yeah yeah so pubic hair of course was not something uh uh that was uh seen as offensive um no but they were also described as maybe a bit yeah yeah so um one of my uh most famous most uh the novels that i really like is the dutch novel the mighty deeds of john shit, the doorluchtige daden van jant okay and uh it has this dialogue between jant and his friends and one of them is a is a prostitute and the constantly making jokes and they're talking about the fact that jant is getting older yeah and um that he has trouble really getting an erection yeah um so his prostitute friend helps him by farting. and then uh they describe this this sexual scene, which for us is like off-putting in away, but uh for in this novel is really seen as um as lust evoking, because it's really brings the body to the four in the most direct direct form, so these are bodies that are open, pores, they're talking, they they are not specifically a... but they are live also jan stront uh his his penis is talking to him, it has a name, it's called jan donder, and he uh, so and the penis is not especially big or so, it shouldn't be uh, there's even a poem in that novel that is about small penises being better, oh, but it needs to be a court, so it needs to be civilized, yeah, so it doesn't necessari have to be beautiful or large, no, it needs to be civilized and it needs to have a good conversation, it's more like a moral kind of quality, yeah, and it needs to, yeah, pornography needs to be uh, a bit truer than life, so I think that's why it moves away also from aesthetics, uh, well, this is so interesting, because this actually feels like it's quite honest for. in comparison to what we see now, yeah, which is always like super ideal and unrealistic really, yeah, so a lot of uh, again there's also a lot of... that people are making themselves right, which then really focuses on the on the on the day and now and on the more gory details, but yes, there is a very important segment of pornography that does this, that aestheticizes, that dehumanizes, that and for me it's very hard to see where then that uh pornography is so lusty voking because away from the real human body, yeah, the the honesty and and and and i mean i could not imagine actually pronography right now, including someone with erection problems, yeah, yeah, this feels like yeah, i mean this would this, i mean i i would consider it quite body positive, yeah, but i don't really see it happening, right, yeah, this is quite interesting that this was well normal, i guess in 16 17 century, yeah, yeah, that that is seen as the sort of, not the standard, but as an important way to, or yeah, an effective way to speak to people's lust, yeah, well, I mean it, it also sounds like it, sex was maybe in pornography uh, less seen as a like a prestation or, yeah, true, you have to perform, you know, maybe, yeah, true, um... 'um yeah, it's also um there are less stories about at like men performing 15 times or so yeah yeah that comes in more in the 19th century interesting enough so then it becomes these motions that you go through uh i think with maybe at the end of the 18th century marquise desada who writes pornography also really like a machine the repetitiveness of the of the sexual act really becomes an investment, so then um sexual uh, yeah, performances uh, as in the series um are more highlighted, I would say, yeah, I was not, before, before that, it's also, there's a fantastic um, french pornograph pornographic novel from the 17th century, lacadem me that dum, uh, sex more to religion to something that is creating uh an aesthetics of it's own, maybe that's the way to describe it, yeah than um that it needs to be about a certain standard or yeah and you also were part of series on dicks true there was a television documentary very interesting um and you also briefly touched upon this that that actually in the the... novel you mentioned that uh the protagonist penis is described as not being very big, well of course now you don't even have to watch porn to know that a big penis is the ideal yeah yeah how this was not the case in the no for no it's quite a contemporary uh issue actually large if you look at the well it's a mixed mixed story right if you look at the classic period for instance you have the these images of with large penises, but that also already or there's also and the falus is uh is sort of an embodied has uh um something you can adore, but then you adore the falles as um an image of fertility, so it's not so much about the largeness, a large penis is even seen as something animalistic, threatening, so sater is not a nice figure, it's not a god of... repulsive really or indeed it's evoke anxiety or maybe even yes yes so satans and saters have that aggressive yeah yeah so um uh it um even i think also in a medical perspective aristotel uh states that a shorter penis is better because it's easier for fertility because the seaman then jumps out easier uh doesn't need to go a long way yeah uh so yeah about not going to get into that let's just see so there's yeah so had the fact that you really want to uh distinct between human and animal behavior makes a large speanus a problem uh then the medical uh uh discourse uh has something to say about it as well uh and indeed in erotic and um uh um literature, this is also not something uh that is stipulated so much appl applauded interesting and do you think I mean now we're getting into sort of? like penis analysis, but do you think this might be because uh, in this period people were, well wanted to show more that they were distinct from animals or civilized in a way, that is very important, it's very important to make that distinction indeed, yeah, civilization um as a as a a distinction between both humans and animals or... uh higher class, lower class is something that yeah, because um yeah, that's so early modern society is really a layered society where every group has its own uh or more or less or no privileges uh whatsoever so the anti regime was really invested in hanging on to all these different uh uh distinctions and going from one group to the other became possible of course with the rise of... capitalism and with the rise of the option of buying yourself uh around, so making distinctions between different uh classes and between humans and non-humans, yes, yeah, and between penises, yeah, i mean you can buy whatever you want, but you can't change that, i guess, yeah, and when you look at this like at at the dick pick, mhm, i mean for me, i i i'm wow fascinated by dig pigs to be honest, because i don't think one woman, oh okay, maybe they are there, there are probably there i want, i don't want to pick shame anyone, but um, i feel like not very many women are aroused or attracted by a dick pick, i feel like this is a very aggressive way of of men to approach women, how do you feel about this and are there any well maybe a sort of um uh ways of going about with pictures of yourself uh in in the in the ages that you study? yeah oh yeah that's so much to unpack umpack around the dick pick uh i was not planning on only talking about like penises with you but we keep on it's such a nice subject yeah the body is a very important thing, right? um, well, um, maybe um, first one thing, um, digbigs are also used for instance in man to men uh uh court uh courtmanships right, and that they function in a different way, I think the men to women, indeed, because of uh, like you rightly say, the discripancy that men do send dick picks to women, and women don't send vagina pic, you are quite right, because have a lot of friends who like use grinder for example and they actually sort of swipe through dick picks sometimes and they actually show me that for them it's seems to be way more normal and also it does not feel aggressive or invasive for them to be an important step in a courting process uh or the dating process and then also it's interesting that um women have trouble seeing the aesthetics of a penis because we have i think think it uh, so there's maybe two stories uh to this, maybe first this story, you can also ask questions about why aren't we educated more in thinking or looking at penises and thinking about them in terms of beauty uh, and and so if we see a picture of a penis, it becomes an aggressive thing quite soon, because it's also something... many women haven't seen out of context uh out of sexual context out of sexual context or because I don't know their fathers walked around naked through the house so it's a normality to see uh penises so the gap that we've created by sort of putting the penis behind the uh um beyond whatever uh is something that we can think about on the other hand indeed um men have used their penises over and over again as a mode of aggression of a way of pushing uh women out of uh really and um aggressive instrument so it's also very understandable that women do react quite differently from to a dictic than the intentions of the men that send them we thought hey wow look at this isn't that fantastic yeah and uh yeah uh, but so, but there's yeah, maybe also a thought about what that says about how used we are to look at penises as something that... is yeah just nice or has a separate aesthetics or um and why is this so close off i guess from our our visual world or our aesthetic world i mean i feel like women's bodies are yeah much more valued in that way yeah and seen in that way yeah it just came from the uh tape modern in london and um you have the gor the gorilla women artist group there we had uh numbers about the that i think 96% of the nude paintings were all women yeah so had um we've been trained to look at nude women a lot and not at nude men um which indeed then um provides your opportunity uh for man to use uh theppiness as an als instrument of aggression, yeah, um, or the image of it, right, yeah, because I do feel that that is the role of the dig big, frankly in, yeah, you think so, yeah, I guess so, don't think that it's also a lot of men who are who are also, there's also a lot to say about sexual education for men, I think it's it's it's it's it's a little bit uh, what has two sides really, I feel like when you are sex. thing or whatever, it can be in a consensual way, but I know a lot of women and I've also received myself very few times fortunately, uh, a dick pick, unrequested, anonymously, uh, and this is quite invasive, I mean, you don't want this, and I mean, I have never ever ever heard about a woman sending a fagina picture to a guy, but do you think that the guys that sent you the dick big thought uh? No, I think it's it's a way, it's it's it's really an aggression, yeah, and do you think that if these boys our guys would have been trained better in learning what women want and what they expect and what they find aesthetic or what they would like to see that they would have behaved differently or do you I don't I hope so what do you think yeah I don't know it's that's not my expertise I think but um "sexual education is is something, we have many people now saying that sexual education also here in the Netherlands is so poor, yeah, that we uh that that people become very unhandy, yeah, in the things and the acts that they uh that they perform, so it can be both about aggression, can also be about not having a clue, yeah, on how to approach you, yeah, in the best. and most convincing way, maybe let's keep expertise, i want to ask you also um uh to conclude also quite broad question actually, because in this podcast we are talking about aesthetic capital and also the idea, i mean i did not come up with this myself, but also our own uh social cultural plumblow um says this in all their research that uh our own eesthetics the way we look. um are becoming more and more important for our position in society and I was wondering actually talking to you right now, how do you see this and do you even agree with this? on the basis of what do they say this, but but well on basis that our society is getting more and more visual in a way, like we we represent ourselves also online throughout social media, everyone has an avatar, we use whatsapp, you need a... spot over that, you know, we are for way more visual than uh, 100 years ago, maybe, yeah, we are replicated, I would never support a claim on saying that aesthetics has become more important, it's a different kind of aesthetics, I think about the aesthetics of um, uh, Christ and Mary, of the of the... statues in a church that reflect the best of people um both in terms of body and in mind right? so that's the aesthetics where um where uh what we are as as beings on the outside, in the inside are completely uh uh collided, so thinking about saints and the images of saints, I think... in the uh medieval period or in the early modern period was so invested in aesthetics, it might be that is the aesthetics of the individual and the fact that the... individual then sees that as one of the defining uh characters of his or her individuality and that might be i think the distinction that um individuality individuality uh which is sort of uh something we became very invested in uh also during the run of the early modern period especially in the way it is expressed by the way we look. 'yeah and then in combination with that, the fact that we constantly express it and that it is, and can compare ourselves, so yes, I see that uh, and also hey, we were talking about uh the fact earlier that um, I used to often give interviews about pornography, and now I'm giving more interviews about uh, people becoming more prudent, and I really see that as a a as a reaction'. towards this over-representation, yes of uh of the cells, yes, because people are more and more visible, you mean, yes, yes, so I think I think yeah, I think you as a as a generation are much more aware of where do I want to put myself as an image, what kind of image do I place there, and also indeed the long livity of that image, is it ever going to going away? I don't have, I don't have such... uh a clear strategy about it uh, but so if you see and you you don't know where your images going globally, yeah, um, so the reaction to become more prudent, to not show yourself uh, to not show yourself naked, yeah, to not go to a nudist uh beach, but people in the in in the 16th or 17th century did show themself naked, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so for instance, if you would, I don't know, um, you would go go out to travel, you're sitting very close to each other in the same chariot, uh, you were placed in a bad in an inn where that you would share with people, you wouldn't uh know, there's a lot of uh, um, common space or common space and communality, uh, you have public bass uh, of course, uh, many people, didn't even have had the the the the money to really close themselves uh then they only had one set of closed for instance we didn't have underpants as such that's also an invention uh that came uh came later so there's a lot of openness to the to the human body i think oh that's that sounds like quite a nice period actually for me well let's go there then yeah maybe let's let's let's conclude that that that nice image thank you very much inger for your time and for your beautiful stories and for your well very interesting perspectives on the penis, i really like that, thank you so much, thank you so much for the interview,