Laura Vonk: Looking The Part. How Your Appearance Matters in the Workplace.

Laura Vonk: Looking The Part. How Your Appearance Matters in the Workplace.

Episode 7
43:17

Laura Vonk is a Scientific researcher at the WRR (The Scientific Council for Government Policy). She studied Sociology at Utrecht University and completed a Research Master’s in Social Sciences at the University of Amsterdam. She earned her PhD with a dissertation on how the aesthetics of workers are regulated, and what this regulation means for both the experiences of workers and inequalities in the labor market. Laura found that appearance matters in the workplace. Employees invest considerable time and effort to meet aesthetic standards set by employers, colleagues, and society. This has profound implications for individuals and society as a whole. In this podcast episode, Laura reveals the hidden processes and unexpected consequences of our norms regarding appearance and presentation.

Episode Transcript:

My name is Doortje Smithuijsen and in this podcast I will be investigating a static capital, because next to well the more known uh forms of capital like social capital and cultural capital, there's also something that is called aasthetic capital and it sort of well it it captures the way we look and the way these looks sort of define our class and our chances in society, and well due to the rise of social media and the increased visibility of our physical... appearance, this static capital is becoming increasingly determined for our social opportunities, so therefore i would really like to investigate this form of capital with all kinds of researchers, some are from the vu, some are from different areas of this society, and together in this podcast we will sort of investigate what is this static capital and how does it shape our society today? welcome to a new episode of the connect with podcast in which we study aesthetic capital and the way it shapes our society, and today I am joined by Laura Vank. Yes, welcome, you studied sociology at Utrecht University and you just obtained your PhD and you wrote a dissertation for that about the aesthetics of workers and the way this is regulated, very interesting topic, I think that is quite overlooked actually when we look at. the workplace and also the way people behave in this, yes, and I'm wondering, it's it's quite a specific subject, quite niche, actually, was there a moment when you when you came up with this or when you thought, wow, this is really what I want to, yeah, dive into, definitely, um, I think one of the uh key moments for me to become interested in this topic uh, was when I was talking with a coworker uh, at an organization I will not name right now, Yeah, yeah, yeah, and this co-worker was very much involved in diversity and inclusion and really uh made a case for people of all colors and genders etc to be included in the organization, and we were talking about one specific job applicant, and then she made quite, I could say rude or harsh comments about his appearance, okay, and this um surprised me, shocked me, maybe even a little bit, because I, I, I hadn't expected that of her, yeah, because you don't have to go... to detail but like he is ugly so we should not hire him or something like that yeah it was about his body size okay yeah so it's specific yeah aspect of his appearance um and that just made me really curious because i thought um you know you can be in favor of inclusion and diversity but there so many aspects and i think um when we talk about appearances or body weight is is one of them yeah um we're a little or a lot of people are a little bit ambivalent, so even though there are um laws against uh racism and sexism, there aren't any laws actually that uh protect people uh to be judged on their appearance, in fact uh you can even get a uh as a if you are a welfare receiver you can even get a a financial penalty for not looking right for work, so appearances is really uh it's one of the ways that inequalities are structured in the labor markets, on the other hand uh we often don't recognize this, yeah, and and we don't recognize our own biases, i guess, because when you say this is someone who is very aware of um the importance of inclusivity in the workplace and hiring a very diverse step and then coming from someone like that to say yeah, well this or that about someone's body type, you really see like the... blind spots there, yes, I think so, so yeah, there's a there's sort of a double standard, it appears, yeah, so this was like your your starting point, it was, um, and then what did you find, what is the key finding for you when it comes to this subject, do do people care too much about the way coworkers look, do we care too little, do we care in a specific way, um, well I'm not sure um I think one of the the most important things I guess my research is about is um so we sort of we know that appearances are important uh for structuring uh chances in the labor market so you talked about this I think with Jiselin de Kaipers also in the first episode of this podcast we know very generally speaking that people who look good in quotation marks uh tend to get have better chances yeah exactly. yeah or get higher salaries or are appreciated more um and what i was really interested in is how do we think about this so how do people perceive this importance of... um uh appearances or aesthetics in general in the labor market and then um also following from the fact that we are a little bit ambivalent towards the importance of aesthetics for work, i was wondering how then do people learn that looking good again within potation marks is important uh or how do they find out about this yeah exactly so how then how are aesthetics regulated how is the importance of? Yeah, that's that's quite a big question, I guess, yeah, yeah, it is, and I feel like when when I was looking at your work, I feel like um, the the the or the main thing that I got out of it is that people know that appearance matter, when it comes to the workplace, but they feel like it shouldn't exactly, but they know that it does and they are sort of conflicted about their... own role in this process, very much so, so one of my case studies was about um gatekeepers in the labor market, so gatekeepers is a little bit of a uh concept term, but by that I mean people who make uh selections for organizations for who to hire, so for instance HR managers or recruiters, um and of course these people actually decide who is going to be in the organization uh and who is not, yeah um and um this specific case study was about um how they perceive the role of aesthetics in how they uh evaluate candidates so in other words how do they think that that looks matter for how they judge people yeah and then um what was very uh clear is that all of them sort of struggle with this because indeed they agree that looks shouldn't matter but actually they do yeah they do yeah "and this of course causes a conflict because they don't want to do things that they don't agree with or the don't want to make unjust uh decisions um so then they come up with all sorts of reasons for why it would be okay exactly they start to sort of get into this sort of process of cognitive dissonance to justify maybe hiring someone that looks a certain way yeah and how do they do this what what are the techniques here well I found a couple of recurring repertoires" Okay, nice, so one of them for instance is that uh, looking good is a matter of effort, yes, this is very popular, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, indeed, like um, anybody can look right, beauty is a choice, yeah, exactly, and the point is that you have to make an effort in order to show that you care or to show that uh, you are really um, motivated to get the job, um, and then another one um, was, uh that um looking good is just part of the job, so especially for uh jobs where people are in contact with other people, for instance customers or audiences, representative, yeah, you have to look representative, yeah, yeah, um, and then another report, but this is beautiful, I mean, right, this is in itself, it's such a beautiful way of thinking, like, yeah, yeah, just because it's important, and it it's so beautiful, because it doesn't really, uh, take account of what this says about the hiring process? no, no, no, exactly, well, i mean in some way you can sort of understand because there's a there's a commercial logic behind who you will hire, but then of course there's the issue, for instance if if your audiences are racist that doesn't really legitimize exactly, this i was just wanting going to say this like you you cannot uh go around and be like yeah we we've just seen in in in our data that hiring white people uh causes more sales. so that's why we only hire and i mean if you would be held accountable for that you would definitely no there would be illegal also yeah and this is this is actually it's not very different right no and there are even cases of people um losing their jobs due to how they look uh there's a famous yeah this wasn't part of my research but i read about it uh so for instance there's one case of uh air hostus um who lost her job for having a short hair oh millimeter long oh really yeah yeah um and there was a case against it but she she actually lost it oh really yeah because she had to because they said you have to have long hair yeah yeah that's that's when was this when yeah this was um it was in the beginning of the this century i would have to say yeah yeah so it was i think about 15 years ago i have to check but it wasn't that long very recent yeah yeah yeah so so you actually you you did research on different sort of stages in the hiring process right, you um uh temporary work agencies and HR managers, you sort of yeah uh went through all these faces in your research. and um I learned actually from from reading about your your studies that temporary work agencies actually do a lot of advising yeah towards the people that they that they trying to you know yes get a job absolutely yeah so this was something that actually also surprised me a little bit um temporary work agencies of course are very important labor market intermediaries especially in the Netherlands they're quite large yeah um and uh what i found was that basically all temporary work agencies and especially the bigger ones, they give advice to job seekers on their websites on how they should look for a a job interview yeah yeah and this changes also with the job? no no it's just very generic advice for job interviews yeah and that's also um so what is the advice? yeah exactly that's a very good question because how do you advise people on how they look? right, because of course looking right is very dependent upon context and also very dependent upon who you are, yeah, and your upbringing, your culture, yeah, it's very hard to tell people what is right, um, so actually what i found was that so analyzed many of these websites and i found that the advice is often um not very useful, i would say um, because they they are and also a little bit paradoxical, okay, the advice. on the one hand tells the reader that they should look authentic, that they should be themselves, that they shouldn't you know make too much of an effort for a job interview, because that wouldn't be themselves, yeah, exactly, but on the other hand, they also tell the job seekers that they should fit in within the organization, yeah uh, you have to look more, yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and of course this is very easy if indeed you're you're applying for a job in an organization with people who are quite similar to you, like you. Yeah, yeah, but if for instance um, you know, if you want to work at university, this is just an example, uh, you want to work at university, but you're a first generation student and you're really not familiar with their cultural codes of university, it's not that easy to find fit, yeah, definitely, I can imagine, yeah, yeah, so the the advice isn't that useful, um, but it does tell the job seekers that it is in fact important to look right, and is it? influential do you know this? well, i didn't study how uh it is received um, but i would say that these advice pages that they are at least a reflection of what we consider to be uh normal or acceptable, professional way of looking. yeah, yeah, i was also thinking, i mean there's a lot of media right now about the workplace, right? i mean, there's a lot of tv series um about you know bankers or lawyers or nurse. isn't this also quite influential when it comes to the way we dress up for work? um, well, do you have any specific examples in mind? well, I'm thinking about suits, for example, when I when I when I walk to to this university, I i crossed us and it's like a suit set, right? everyone is wearing a gray suit, yeah, it's interesting actually, yeah, yeah, uh, yeah, that's true, could be definitely the case that uh, affects people as well, so so you can also look at Netflix for your for your information how to look right, yeah, I guess yeah, but it comes quite uh precise, um, you know, in the Netherlands uh, we sort of pride ourselves with our informal codes, but of course, especially these informal codes are actually quite hard to achieve or to to read and to understand uh, and I've watched a couple of episodes of suits, but um, I'm sure that if I had to dress for a job at the soutus, they would... easily uh, they could easily tell that I don't actually really belong there, you're not a graysuit kind of person, yeah, and then also it's quite funny what you say, actually, I do totally agree when it comes to, you know, the more informal ways of presenting yourself, you now, I'm thinking of casual Friday, I'm not sure if it's still a thing, but it I think it used to be, especially in like the bigger firms, of course the're schedule Friday, but know coming into casual Friday actually in a in a tracksuit that's too casual yeah yeah so that's also i mean you have to navigate yeah through all these sort of different codes and no exactly this is a really nice example of um how hard it can be to get it right when the codes are more informal it's easier when it's quite clear and you you sort of have to wear a suits and everybody well all our politicians wear bluesuit for instance so that's something that you can easily do but if you have to wear informal clothes, that's that's different, yeah, so you also spoke to recruiters and HR professionals about the way they hire and and and the role that well uh looks. play in this process and i'm really curious to see uh to hear from you what what what did they have to say about this themselves? yeah, these interviews were actually part of a larger project hiring on taste uh by kobere who who let the that research, but we used the data also for uh this specific case study um so your question was what they they said yeah like when they describe this process like someone i feel like when when some... one walks into a room, you immediately yeah, judge them, yeah, yeah, on their looks, you don't want to, no, but it happens, that's what they said as well, yeah, yeah, they talked about this as a sort of um, unconscious bias that they would have, so for instance if it's quite conscious, yeah, yeah, they could easily articulate it, actually uh, so for instance they would say um, if they have a a pile of cvs and a lot of people include pictures on cvs, yeah, and if somebody is really... goodling, they would say, yeah, i i want to get a better look at that person, yeah, or they would also reflect on this as - something that they find problematic, so for instance, one of them said, uh, if there's somebody who's actually really overweight for instance, which is of course a little bit against the norm in many organizations, then um, i'm conflicted, and then i think, you know, then we should definitely invite this person, because i don't want to that my inquisition like positive discrimination, yeah, i'm not sure if they actually do that, "I guess if we look at the data from, but yeah, at least they they sort of intend to do so. Yeah, and and and when you spoke to them or talk to them about this process, do you feel like you can, we all have this bias like we just sort of established, but do you feel you can sort of change that or go beyond this or yeah, well I think it's first of all important to use this word bias inquitation marks, it's more more of a psychological. term that um, it implies that people sort of have this natural tendency towards uh certain looks, but I think it's really important that we um uh understand and um and and underline that this is also culturally formed, yeah, definitely, so uh, what is the right way to look is really something that's culturally shaped, um, and now I forgot your question, sorry, well can you actually sort of go past this, like you had this... this first impression on someone, can you change this? oh, yeah, that's that's that's hard, right? yeah, um, so some of them have certain techniques uh, by trying to do, yeah, in order to to sort of circumvent this, so for instance, they say it's important to not do job interviews just by themselves, but to have another person present, uh, and then especially the um, professional recruits, so the people who are full-time a full-time job in in in hiring people, they have all sorts of technique in order to techniques in order to assess job uh candidates um start and i don't a lot of acronyms uh so they use these sort of standardized tests uh in order to not let themselves be influenced too much by people's uh looks okay oh that's very interesting so so could you sort of explain on these tests yeah so for instance uh to use um uh questions in job interviews, not just let any job interview follow a natural course, but to really ask every job applicant the same questions, yeah, yeah, formulated in the same way, and how does this sort of take away your your physical impression of someone? yeah, i suppose it doesn't, but that's that's how they say they try to, yeah, then you, yeah, it's it, it's, it's like, it's more honest or yeah, "and I think it's also really important to realize that they don't always want to not let appearances play a role, so for them, if you just ask them straight up, does it play a role in how you evaluate job candidates, they would say yes, it does uh, but I find it problematic, but then they go on to have a lot of explanations for why it actually would be okay, so for instance uh a lot of the recruiters and HR managers also said it's not really about appearances, but it's about charisma." or it's about uh what a person's looks tell you about their personality yeah which is of course this translation has a lot of problems also or energy yeah exactly yeah yeah yeah yeah great energy yeah yeah yeah and that's way of yeah making it sound more uh deep and and not superficial as as judging somebody by looks yeah are are people for you you gave this example at the beginning of our conversation about uh person who actually well was quite um harsh about someone's body type, are people aware of their own, well biases or preferences or... Well, I think this is actually one of the the most important points for me about my research, um, I think that we really don't talk enough about the importance of aesthetics for shaping inequalities, and I, I think a lot of the people in my research, they intend to do uh well and they don't want to create a lot of inequalities and to exclude people, but I guess we're not really used to talking about how appearances actually are also a form of uh shaping inequalities. definitely um yeah, so one of the main points of my research is really that to to get people talking about this and to uh uh create more awareness about this yeah sort of show the ways also implicitly a certain standard is being yeah oppressed or maybe that's too harsh of word but applied to everyone yeah because that that is what happens and it's and and i do feel like and you also studied this it's not only in a hiring process i guess it's also i remember a friend of mine um she started working at a big consultancy firm yeah and she lost like she she went uh to uh row cycle like crazy like everyday buse they all did this and she lost like 10 kilos or something in like a half a year or something she was super skinny because all the girls were really part of the norm is this something that you saw? as well, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, um, so we we talked about how statics are regulated before people actually work somewhere and how it plays a role in the hiring process, but like you said, it also plays a role in uh, once people are in certain organizations, and there a statics of course are still regulated, and well, what we really know about from the literature on astatic labor is that employers themselves are quite often uh involved in regulating workers aesthetics, oh really, yeah, um defin in what way? well, for instance uh by uh certain clothing guidelines or making remarks, so there's uh, you know, even a study um by by British sociologists with a lot of examples, for instance of a a cashier, a person in a shop being sent home to shave her legs, it can even go that far, yeah, it can be really explicit, um, this is also sorry, it's a sideline, but uh, because I remember this, I used to work at a clothing clothing. i think it doesn't exist anymore does it yeah no it was everyone was cancelled and was shut down for good reasons but they were very strict with clothing lines like we yeah we had to uh like wear uh we couldn't wear sneakers or boots for example we had to wear heels or or like flats and and it was like really the females i guess yeah uh and you couldn't wear your hair in a certain way like not in ponytail but you had to wear it either loose now etc. it was really how was this communicated to you? well actually in guidelines in guidelines actually okay yeah and i do feel like this was the only time that i was told how to look yeah by my employer yeah but this was also i mean it for me i was studying at the moment and this was like a a part-time job for me yeah so you sort of accepted i yeah yeah uh which was also kind of weird but yeah so i don't mean that's but i'm i'm just thinking about it uh like if someone would come up to me now and say uh don't wear your hair like that or whatever i would be like who are you to tell me this and i feel like maybe uh is this also something that you see in maybe less earning jobs or uh maybe a little bit uh lower qualified uh in in society kind of jobs that people are told more. how to look? yeah, so this is a very interesting observation indeed, um, when we talk about aesthetic regulation and people being told how they should look, this often happens in uh surface jobs, so for in retail uh or in restaurants or bars etc. um, and these places are most famous for having uh static guidelines for the workers, yeah, and also actually, um for employers to uh hire people based on their looks also, so sometimes it's even in the the job advertisement that they look for people with a certain look, this was also at the place that i worked that they actually really they also had a sort of uh uh coloring uh scheme for the for the girls who worked there so i was hired because at that moment they needed someone with girls so there was like the look for diversity but like it was like spice girl yeah like spice girl sort of aesthetic this was really going on yeah yeah i'm laughing but of course this is yeah you could also cry yeah, that's fascinating, that's really fascinating, yeah, exactly, so you're not hired for uh, the things that you're able to do or competence, exactly, um, but for yeah, just the the the getting the picture complete, yeah, that's very interesting, yeah, yeah, it's very interesting, but I also do feel like people um, also sort of create a look within their own group. of workers right, like i like i said for the for the friend of mine who or for example when i think of uber drivers right, i mean there's no one telling them how to look, yeah, but i do feel they all kind of look a certain way, well you could say that they need to look right to get good uh exactly, but then it's sort of so it feels like algorithm is their employer maybe, but yeah maybe yes, but there's all kinds of different sort of system, yeah ways of sort of uh getting getting an idea in your head of how to look absolutely yeah so uh what i found was missing in this literature on aesthetic labor uh was the fact that indeed often people are not just simply told how they should look but that it's far more complicated yeah yeah it's much much more complicated and intricate learning how to look right yeah so uh traditionally the the literature on aesthetic labor really looks into how there is sort of direct regulation and what I tried to do in my study was to look at more indirect forms of regulation, so what I did in one of my case studies uh was look at how coworkers actually give each other feedback on how to look right exactly yeah uh and what I found was that people take this very seriously if they get a static feedback that can be very um it can really impact how they they feel even though it's about something in quitation frivolous or superficial uh that doesn't mean it's not taken seriously yeah um and is also uh sorry i'm like throwing around personals for today but i i have an an office so i i i i i rent an office a place in an office yeah but but no the rest of the office actually is uh like someone's own business so he's a business owner he owns the office i rent there yeah but the rest of the office is are uh well the people that work for him so he's the employer ah okay yeah and always when i'm there like for me it's sort of like a partly a recreational place like i go there because i don't want to be at home all the time and i just want to get out of there and write write in a different place or like have a meeting or whatever short talks yeah exactly but but usually when i'm there i'm just i i look like this at best you know or i am wearing sweatpants or maybe even a track suuit i don't care what they doesn't matter no makeup i don't care and i always feel like i'm so different from them because they seem to perform more yeah they come up uh they come in there every day looking super nice what kind of uh office is it uh it's like a marketing kind of firm yeah okay yeah they look really like like it's a creative sort of job they have but they always look like beautiful neck clothing and everyone is looking really good with their hair nice and also to like this is the the difference like there's also a performative layer going on here and showing your employer that yeah you care i guess yeah showing your employer but maybe also your co-workers exactly yeah yeah yeah definitely um i think that's maybe one of the reasons why people really find it important uh to to look right or to fit in and also why they find it important that others sort of uh fit in yeah they find that important as well, yeah, why? yeah, well that's very hard to to say, of course, you can uh, ask people why they find it important, but what people say is not always, you know, i guess people are often not really aware of their motives, no, but what i found in my interviews was that people um, so to give an example, uh, there was one person i interviewed who told me that he was getting uh remarks and not compliments, for wearing a jacket, like a suit jacket to work, so like looking fancy, yeah, exactly, yeah, who do you think you are, maybe a little bit like that, yeah, oh, look at you, yeah, and this person was a sort of promotion, yeah, yeah, maybe, yeah, and there are different ways of explaining this, um, he was working at a place that is known for being a little bit, well uh, leftist, maybe, um, and non-conventional, uh, but also was quite young, he only just started working, he was a junior uh co-worker, so maybe people were also sort of telling him to you know know his place in the hierarchy, "there many reasons, because also I when I used to work at a newspaper, yeah, I started there when I was 23, so I mean I was very young, I was wearing jeans or whatever, but there were also men there who were 50, 60, they were a suit every day, mhm, but suppose I would have gone there every day in a suit would be super weird, no, yeah, and this is a very important point as well, right, because there are certain aesthetic norms, there are norms in the workplace on what clothes are suitable and..." what not, but there are also norms on who can wear what? yeah uh and for instance are you entitled to yeah exactly yeah yeah famous example this is i think from a study by Margarite van der Berg and you seen Arts is for instance that you know tech boys they can wear hoodies and flip flops um but if a welfare recipient uh wears flip flops to a job interview that person can actually get a financial penalty um for not looking right for work even though in another sector another person 'm yeah, it's also a class thing being able to yeah, go to work in a in a hoodie, yeah, i guess, yeah, yeah, and and going to work in your your tracksuit, it chose a certain level of comforts, you don't have a lot to lose, maybe like super traumatized by my first job, i i only want to wear a track suit again, um, i'm also thinking now that we speak of this, because of course there's also a lot of work places where's there's an uniform, i mean you have to look a certain way, you have to wear kind of, i mean think of well the flight attendant you already mentioned or or other workers, does this change the psychologically of the workplace in any yeah in any way, yeah that's a good question um so one of my case studies i looked into a work clothing that is actually really heavy heavily regulated and of course an extreme case of this is uh the uniform um and uh I looked at two types of uniforms, one of train conductors, yeah, or I shouldn't say, I didn't look at the uniform, I looked at the people who wear the uniform, I should say, that's more specific uh, train conductors and people who work in really high-end restaurants, oh yes, um, and in both cases I found that indeed uniform uh really impacts how people do their work and also how they uh perceive themselves when they are at work, um, so for instance, um, first going to the example of train conductors, they of course, this has been in the media a lot recently, they are doing their work in quite dangerous circumstances, actually quite aggressive, yes, yeah, i i guess all the people, all the train conductors i spoke with had uh experienced some form of harassment recently, and many of them had actually experienced actual physical aggression, that's so tragic, yeah it's it's quite quite hard actually um and interestingly um the uniform does something to them into accepting uh these sort of harsh circumstances um so for instance when they come into the job new and they are trained they actually learned that when um somebody insults them it's not them yeah it's not not addressed at you personally it's addressed at your uniform so just let it slide off you know don't yeah don't take it personally, that's so interesting, yeah, do do they manage to perceive it that way? yeah, i guess it's a little bit double, because on the one hand um some of the workers said yeah, it does actually help me to sort of uh take distance and to not take it home with me these insults that i receive, but on the other hand um they are still in situations that can be physically threatening um so yes and you're still there, i mean yeah you cannot walk away from that uniform once you wear it. exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, people can insult you, and maybe it's not personally, but when they become physically aggressive, then it doesn't matter if it's personally, yeah, exactly, um, and what I found for instance, was uh, one of the people I interviewed was a woman who was quite um, short, she was a a small person, and um, she she told me about a certain situation in which a man, a really tall big man was super angry at her because the train was delayed or I don't whatever, um, and she felt that... situation was escalating and she didn't know what to do because she cannot use any uh aggression herself and of course she would be completely chanceless against this man, so at some point she was like, um, okay, i have to turn this around, and she told him, sir, look at me, i'm i'm a little leprecon, there's nothing that i can do, and at that point he just started seeing her as a person again rather than just as a as a uniform, and that helped her to deescalated. Yeah, yes, and did is this also the case with the high-end restaurant workers, like do they sort of have a distinction between their personal, yeah self and the person. person in the restaurant working, yeah, yeah, some of them uh do uh, and again I think this has two sides of the story, because for some people, it was a really pleasant experience to put on their uniform, and one one of the people I spoke with said, once I close those buttons, I i turn a switch and I become my work self, and like you said, it's a performance, the show starts, uh, so it has this sort of appeal wearing a uniform, all wearing the same uniform, very pleasant uh situation to work in, but on the other hand, I also spoke with uh, especially females who said that this again can sort of uh induce them into accepting situations that they would otherwise perhaps not accept, so for instance uh one woman I spoke with told me that she often felt like when she put on a uniform that she was playing a role, so her performance started, and then she said uh, in certain situations people... a men would make uh remarks at me or basically sexually assault me even uh and I would think I have to accept this because I'm playing a role this is just I'm in character I'm in character exactly yeah yeah wow so I just have to sort of dissociation even from the situation in a way yeah yeah wow that's interesting also a little bit tragic in a way it's a little bit problematic maybe yeah but again there's also pleasure in wearing a uniform yeah and I guess if it helps you cope with things that would otherwise have more impact, I guess that is quite positive in a way uh, yeah, well the the question is, would these things happen if they weren't very, well, I was just going to ask you, like what is the difference between the way people sort of uh, well relate to their appearance when they wear a uniform and when they wear, well, when they wear an official uniform, and when they wear the uniform that is sort of implicitly shown to them, yeah, um, well it's interesting first of all that people it's not a neutral thing to wear a prescribed uniform for a lot of people it's really a big thing yeah i can imagine yeah so the they would tell me you know i never thought i would do a job where i would have to wear a uniform yeah um or uh they would say that it was really a big thing for them starting their job one of the things that was hardest for them was starting to wear a uniform i can imagine i mean you're so seen as someone with their job, exactly, yeah, it makes them highly visible, and uh, of course this is one of the purposes of a uniform uh, for instance for train conductors, you know, if they're doing their rounds to the train or just walking in a station, yeah, they have to be visible, um, so it it, yeah, yeah, it's nice to see who's conducting the train, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, um, uh, so coming back to your question, how that is different, um, That's yeah, that's I guess one of the the biggest differences, yeah, yeah, that is sort of a universal recognizable way of looking, yeah, yeah, exactly, it doesn't need any explanation, no, no, yeah, I can imagine that being very different, um, to conclude our conversation, I am actually wondering, when it comes to this hiring process that we talked about in the beginning, and the... way people do not want to judge others on their looks, but they do. uh, I feel like this is a very uh interesting and important example of the way that's well uh, working towards a more inclusive workspace, uh, trying to have less discrimination in the workplace, how how hard it is actually to sort of fight these things. and do you feel like a more inclusive workplace could sort of be possible if we change our hiring process and and and and maybe sort of try to come up with a way that looks matter less in this process? yeah, i think it could be a part of this process definitely, so for instance uh not putting pictures on cvs, yeah um or maybe even of course... orchestras for instance have these these blind hiring processes uh, you could do this in in any job application, I suppose, um, I'm not sure if if organizations would necessarily be in favor of it, but I guess that could be part of commercial organizations, I guess, yeah, not like this very much, yeah, and yeah, of course, people have a linkedin profiles with pictures on them, so it's it, it, there are some practical challenges, yeah, yeah, but yeah um do you feel people would want this workers? that's a good question, i don't know, because you could also... say it sort of slims your chances right, if you feel blessed with certain jeans or look that is favorable in some way, then you might say, well no, no, no, i want to put that picture up, i want to increase my chances by looking right holiday picture on my uh, well i suppose maybe some people would be uh, yeah wouldn't be in favor of excluding aesthetics in the application process, but i don't know, i'm not sure if if... of people really think that it would increase their chances, yeah, would it change the workplace radically, you feel? well, it depends, um, because in in one of my case studies, I, like I said, I did research on how people actually give each other feedback, and um, of course once at work you can still be sort of excluded or yeah, judged or get promoted or feel insecure about appearances, and of course that's a a more difficult challenge to tackle, um, for me anyway, one of the... purposes of my study is to create more awareness, which would hopefully sort of open up the conversation about this and make people perhaps more critical or at least more aware of what is going on. yeah, well, I'm glad we did that also today. thank you very much Laura for being here. it's very, very nice talking to you.

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