Janice Deul: Fashion for All, A Quest for Inclusivity

My name is Doortje Smithhuizen and in this podcast I will be investigating aesthetic capital, because next to, well, the more known uh forms of capital like social capital and cultural capital, there's also something that is called aesthetic capital, and it's sort of, well it it captures the way we look and the way these looks sort of define our class and our chances in society, and well due to the rise of social media and the increased visibility of our physical. appearance, this static capital is becoming increasingly determined for our social opportunities, so therefore I would really like to investigate this form of capital with all kinds of researchers, some are from the fu, some are from different areas of this society, and together in this podcast we will sort of investigate what is this aesthetic capital and how does it shape our society today? welcome to a new episode of this connected. podcast by defu in which we will talk about aesthetic capital and today i am joined by a new guest and it's Janice Dull. Janice, you are, well, maybe I can call you a fashion activist. Is that something you would like to call yourself? Yes, I always refer to myself as being a fashion activist as well as being a journalist and a publicist. Yes, and could you tell me a little bit about your work and maybe also what your activism and tails? Yeah, started by calling myself a fashion activist uh let's say 12 years ago and a lot of people often tend to think that activism is something scary or something negative but in my in my book it's totally positive and uh for me the activism is uh let's say an umbrella concept under which all my activity all my activities uh uh enroll so to say be it's a writing or talking or working on um uh exhibitions for musea or being on boards or at advisory committees, that's all all these activities are for me uh to be considered as activism and the the the main message that i want to uh communicate via via this activism is that we have to use the power of fashion and beauty to make society uh more inclusive to be sure that everyone feels at home and everyone can use their... talent and can be seen and can be uh can be who they are or who they want to be, yeah, because I would say that your activism really is about diversity and inclusion in the fashion industry and fashion media, i i would say, you yourself also have a background, i think in in fashion and fashion media, yeah, yeah, my activities, i started out with being um centrering my activ activism around, magazines and fashion, but later on it's also about um advocating for change in in in culture and media in a broader sense and but it's true i i when i first started working sort of i uh worked for several fashion magazines and lifestyle magazines as a copy editor i think and later on i started writing also for uh for magazines about uh fashion lifestyle and usually in relation to uh diversity and inclusion and although my my my activism the the the main the main uh the main focus of my activism is um people of color, women of color, especially black women, but obviously i am advocating for diversity in the whole spectrum, i want to see let's say men and heels let's say a non non binary people in magazines i want to see plus h so called plus age people and plus size, i want to see all the the fabulousness that that we see around us in the streets or or elsewhere, i want to see that being represented in the in the fashion, but i also want that the so i want to see that being represented, but i also want to that those groups are being um served by fashion, so what do you mean by served? um, i want uh fashion industry and fashion makers and magazine makers to realize that there's not only one type of body or one type of beauty, that's what I mean by being served and that we all are able to dress, that we want to dress, that you can buy clothes in all size, all kind of sizes for all kinds of bodies and when did you because I mean you started working in in in the fashion industry and the media industry, I can imagine, I don't know, I'm assuming this, but maybe you always were a little bit of an activist or someone who liked to... sort of challenge uh the views, yeah, it was there a moment for you when you realized this is what i want to do, yeah, well, i think no one is born as as an activist, but on the other hand, i have always felt a strong um, i've always had a strong sense of what's justice and what is injustice, so um when i was um working as an intern for a PR company, i went over to the director of the of the company and i said that he had to find another way to deal to to to deal with his person with his employees and everyone was applauding me, but at the end of the day i was the one that was... being kicked out, oh wow, but still, I mean, I, I, this, that's that's, I think um, how I am, that's how I roll, you're someone who speaks up, yeah, apparently, and um, but but in this specific case, um, well, there is a specific moment that I thought, well, I have to do something about this, and that was, I think about 12 years ago when I uh, got in contact with a with a with a model, a young, a fabulous, gorgeous, beautiful young model, and... um, i must say, want to be model, because she wanted to model, she wanted to see her face on the cover of magazines and she wanted to do the shoots and she wanted to be on the runways, but whenever she went to the agencies, they said, well, you are, you are gorgeous and you are fabulous and your body is great, but then again we already have someone like you, and by that they meant that they already had one other black model, and it was rather astonishing obviously, because we all know that that in the agencies uh models in all shades of white and and blond are on top of the list so to say, but apparently it was for them more than than enough to have one woman uh one young woman represent the whole spectrum of of of blackness so to say and uh I was really um astonished by hearing this and I was also really in shock um because "this was not something that i um had engaged, experienced during my own life, for the listeners who may not know me, i'm i'm a black, i'm a black woman, and um, but i had been brought up in an environment where people um, well always engaged me with with with with kindness and with positivity and i all..." had learned from my parents that you are that we are great and you are wonderful and that we could do whatever we wanted and that no one in this world was um above us so that that we could reach for the stars and uh so I had a really had and have a really really good um idea of self-confidence and that was never being challenged by people in my environment so when I heard this... about this young uh young, she was a girl actually about this girl, this girl, i thought, well this is also how do how the cookie crumbles, this is very much of a confrontation, yeah, it was it, i always considered this to be as a as a as a wake up call, and it may sound a little bit crazy for someone who is obviously black and who has who is not blind, i mean i know, i knew, i know about discrimination and so on, but hearing this from this wonderful girl was really uh, as i said before, wake up call for me, yeah, also probably because you saw uh, not only in a like a human kind of way, but also like a waste of talent, exactly, exactly, and that's also what I tried to pinpoint by my activism that we that we uh, that that this is a waste of talent, because we have only uh, we only see a certain kind of people a cer a certain kind of beauty, and we only reward a certain certain certain kind of talent, yeah, but this girl was... also surprised because i was so surprised and she later on she said to me, i really thought, well where does this woman come from? she she did not understand that i that this was kind of new to me, but you must know that i was born in in Rotterdam obviously, of not obviously a long, long, long, long time ago, and then i was, i grew up in Wageningen and rein, and i went on studying in Leiden University. and i joined a a students uh um club, a rather traditional students club like suriv, yes a sortiety so my whole environment had always been rather wide so to say and you know when there is only one person uh sometimes um people tend to pamper that person so i was the only black uh girl woman person and i was obviously uh well behaved uh had a wonderf wonderful look, it was funny and and and talkative and uh, how do you say that? people call it also integrated, yes, so then there was nothing to... to hate about me, you know what i mean, but as that's what i maybe also because you were not challenging your environment, exactly, i was going with the the flow, yeah with with the flow, and uh so this was really a wake-up call for me and that was for me the starting point to to engage in this activism. yeah, well it's it's very interesting and you've been working in fashion for quite some time, and i'm wondering, well maybe from that that that that moment 12 years ago. when you had this sort of realization moment um to now um in that period of time do you feel like the fashion industry changed at all when it comes to inclusion diversity yeah uh i think it has changed uh but not it was not uh because of um it it has changed but it had to do a lot with people from outside the industry from uh people like myself, activists, but also really uh uh concerned and involved readers who who uh said, well we we don't want to see this anymore or you need to do that anymore uh because magazines were being called out fire the social media and so but also uh I hope you don't mind me stressing that fact uh well because of certain people were uh saying well this has to end and I consider myself as uh well It's a little bit funny or silly maybe to say that from yourself, but about yourself, but I think um, well, when you when you look up, look up activism in the fandala, you found my name in my my picture, well I'm not sure what you were were sort of hesitating to say, but I think that I can already say that I agree, because I feel like, I feel like you have been a very, very influential and powerful and very great voice when it comes to these subjects, yeah, so... thank you and i i do agree with that, but that's also maybe because i just ended another interview prior for this talk and we were talking about this also, so you feel like you've been talking about yourself, not at all, i like to bring the the message across obviously, but then also there is always the realization that um, yes i have done wonderful things and really important things and uh it's not um, it's not like a nine to f job what i do right, it's it's a lot of uh involvement and passion and I have that passion and I know I brought this on myself, I was the one who said I want to do this, no one said you have to do this, but still again I did this and I do it, and there is change and things are evolving for the better slightly that is, but um it's really well, it's rather difficult for me to see that um, maybe to compare the now to yeah, but also few years ago. there is no um, how shall I put it? I had the idea and the hope and the expectation that the the the fashion industry, the fashion magazines would consider me to be as a as a as an ally, but that turned out not to be the case at all, okay, they rather they see me more as something who uh is um yeah the critic and who is uh, so you're you're not. seen as a like or maybe you were hoping to be an ally and maybe you were also hoping that once you brought it up people would have the same realization in the way that you had when this young model approached you and you were like wow i never looked at it like this but now that you're telling me like in a sort of almost well i don't want to call it naive but maybe innocent way like wow it's great that you point out uh this misjudgement from these industry people. 'let's change it, because maybe you thought like they want, they will want to change it as well, and maybe when we sort of tell them about their flaw, yeah, it's it will be fixed, yeah, well that's exactly what I mean, and also that I i thought that we would join forces and keep on working, making this whole industry a better, a better place for everyone, but that that's not been the case, why not do you think? well, well, obviously journalists are' are very uh stubborn people and I am allowed to say so because I am one myself obviously, but uh when we talk about fashion um um yeah and and and there is this idea that fashion is a very uh the fashion industry is a fashion a very um avandde industry or environment but it's rather conservative and that we see that when people are in certain places they want to stay there, they they want to stick there, um, um, we we see it's only the last few years that we see some new fresh blood, fresh new people, 'who are uh editor in chief from the at the magazines and some of them are even considered to be women of color, but but we were used of being um editors in chief hoping from one title to another title and staying there for 20 there for 20 or 30 years, but it's also hard like for for for for women or men or anything in between who are editors in chief uh at at for example fashion magazines they also have have to deal with like the board of directors who want to make money and I've heard from some of my friends who are in these positions that it can sometimes even be hard to sort of advocate your decisions on being you know uh forward with more diversity and like they can be very conservative these boards yeah but um in in in the day today business I don't think that the board is medling in with the with the magazine. the the money uh argument is always being used um and uh i think we have seen uh the during the last last few years that putting let's say a black model on the cover or whatever doesn't mean that the magazine won't sell i was brought up and uh i think the the the people you are referring to uh had the same experience that um uh there was a kind of uh person van vuren maybe you know his name yeah he was so-called blader doctor, magazine doctor, now we have an other magazine doctor, but this was the the original, the og bladen doktor, and he said uh, in well in it was in um in in in Dutch um, groen cost you poen, so when you whenever you use the color green on your magazine cover, the magazine won't sell, no one will buy it, yeah, i don't know, and later on he al and he also said that black uh models did not sell and we all um adapted those those the last rule, but when it came to the color issue we experimentated with a lot of things, you know what i mean? but but only when it comes to the to the black models, we stick to this old rule, so we are hesitant to to change, and i think it's a kind of laziness, and also it has to do, let's be honest, let's be frank with the with the preference of the of the editor in chief, yes they all they... they are a product of this uh eurocentric uh uh uh world and time and and age and i think when you are when you would be able to to have a look in the in the back of their heads their minds they would uh tell you yes black blunt is more beautiful it's more stylish it's more hot cool it's a bias yes it's a bias def yeah and a bi bias is something that we are not always uh 'm conscious about, but I think it truly is, yes, yes, and when it comes to fashion, like why specifically for fashion, why is it important that there's all the diversity that's possible and that everyone feels represented in the world of fashion? yeah, well um, what I'm advocating obviously, what I want obviously is an inclusive world, but since fashion is my uh field of interest and my'. i i focus on fashion, but i also focus on fashion because it's such an um accessible thing, such um and a fashion is is maybe uh we we need to talk about clothes, it's not about trends or something, it's about clothing, the clothes you wear, which we all need, i mean that's exactly, that's what we all need, that's what we all wear, it's something that's really close to us, it's really on our skin, we wear it on our skin, it's it's something that we all have a... connection that we all have a connection with right, and even people who say, well, I don't do fashion, I don't care about fashion, well they get up an hour earlier to make sure that they look like they don't care about it, you know what I mean, so it's really a tactile topic, and and I truly believe in communicating um something difficult or something hard, fire, something that is um, well easy or or or... beautiful like fashion and fashion is everywhere and also fashion has been uh the industry so it's maybe good to make uh to defer between the fashion as a as a industry and fashion as a discipline right so i'm a big fan of fashion as a discipline obviously but i have a truly a love hate hate relation with the industry as as as a whole but the industry uh is also um indebted to a lot people of color, people of color all around the world, and it has been the case since since forever, yeah, so especially in the fashion, I think... in fashion, people should be more inclusive and uh embrace diversity and give people credits uh when credit is yeah yeah and how do you feel uh because of well maybe in the well the the the the 12 years that your activism has been going on now social media of course uh became a very powerful tool people could use how do you feel this has changed maybe diversity in fashion has it changed? diversity in fashion? yeah, it's it has changed, but still um, i think the focus nowadays should not be on diversity, but on inclusion as a whole, it's rather easy to say, well let's put a black model on the cover or a plus such model on the cover, and we've crossed that out and we've crossed them out, or even we we we we sent out press uh clippings afterwards, that was that was the case in the beginning, yeah we have a black. middle yay for us yeah so annoying amazing and then then maybe still the whole you know uh team of editors exactly yeah exactly so what we now need is is let's say a photographers photographers of of color or or or editors or uh stylist makeup artist hair persons not let's not forget those obviously so so that's now it's more the focus of of what i uh what i advocate the focus of my activist so it's like inclusion from within, not just the the the surface, exactly like you know the cover look, we've got what's her name, iman or whatever, like a beautiful black model on the cover, and then not changing the system from the inside, exactly, and and and and I have a platform it's called diversity rules and it's been there, I think for 10 years also, and what I did in the beginning of what I have done all the time was not only share uh um articles on topics like well you name it black hair or topics like meal or female or what is considered to be female and meal or you know what i also found so cringe when i'm not sure if they still doing it but when magazines tell you what uh what kind of clothing is appropriate for which age something like that for which age or for which body obviously yeah like how to hide this or that yeah that's so uh 19 well. yeah, but but but also uh so what I did was also share a lot of pictures and covers of models uh magazines who who showcased a non uh white thin model on their cover and I was really happy about it so I shared all those cover but later on and that's now let's say I really I think yeah so they have a black model and now they don't need to be applauded about that it's about it yeah being inclusive all the way and it's always very difficult right i i I feel this to for example you've got these uh commercials i think on the radio right now from Vacker deer you know the yeah the corporation that is trying to sort of create awareness around uh you know animal harm and the way supermarkets sell you know kilo knollers the products made by these harmed animals and they you can really feel like these activist groups they feel pressure to be positive right so they they have their their ads about you know all the... that's being done by the bio industry, but they also have very positive ads about supermarkets not selling bioindustry products and i always feel very awkward about these because i feel like should we applaud this that this is not being sold right and maybe you feel the same about you know these covers like should we applad a sort of window dressing yeah well on this point in this point on my in my activism i i think well no no no applause is needed, you have to move on, you have to do better than only showcasing uh uh a model that's not not so-called standard model and also what i uh see that um let's say some years ago the the ultimate cover model was let's say blunt thin blue eyed and so on and now we see more diversity so to say but still we uh there is a lack of... uh diversity within the diversity, so when you see a trans a trans model we only see the models who look like uh sis women, you know what i mean, when you see um a black model still they this is a certain uh kind of look that they want and this is also i feel like with plus size models which is actually a name i already find very appaling but when you see like a a model with a bigger size, usually their face is still very slim, yeah, yeah, and and also the bigger size, the bigger body, it is okay as long as it... has a an hourglass shape, exactly, you won't see a big block, big straight one, but it has to be, yeah, shaped in an hourglass, so we see that fashion keeps on creating new stereotypes of of beauty, and i think that's also really annoying these days, don't know how to how to, yeah, yeah, i do very much agree, and i'm also wondering like when it comes to fashion, we already touched upon it a little bit, like it is something we all need sooner or later, because we all need clothing uh, at least most of us, I guess, um, do you feel like by changing or or sort of creating more inclusion within the fashion industry, you can also maybe create a more inclusive society as a whole? um, it's a it's a big question, yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely uh do think so, because um, when, I know, I realized magazines are not the the... the the the powerful and the and the and the important and the wonderful uh uh media they used to be way back, they're not as big and are not as influential yeah but still they they have their influences and i also always consider consider a magazine as um chronic of this of these times they show what is going on and how people live how people eat uh how they look and um and i think when let's say in 15 years we would have a look at magazines nowadays, it would be such a pity when you would only see one kind of uh person being represented, and i think the the more you see people that are not uh that don't look like you, the more you are um inclined to to realize that we are all considered to be let's say the other in in the in the minds of the other yeah and that there is not one typical body or... yeah, i i do remember like as a girl looking at fog and l and thinking, okay, so i cannot have breasts or whatever, because these models don't have them right, i mean they are like like like you know little boys, but they are very tall, you have a hot culture like body now, i i think, i'm way too small, oh you're small, okay, that's your personality, maybe i compensate, yeah, no, no, it's also something that i remember like thinking like, oh, I'm so small, right, because I considered it normal that girls were like 1 meter 90 or something, yeah, yeah, so it does really, it creates biases, I think more than people are actually aware of, yeah, and and it creates a low self-esteem, and and also um, ex extremities, because people see all kinds of wonderfulness in their point of view, and they... want that also, so they go to the plastic surgeon, they take pills, they use injections and they go injections and they go on and on and only and we can all we all know what it can lead to in worst case scenario, yeah, yeah, terrible, also right now with the whole ozempic thing, i'm really, and colorism is also obviously one of the consequences of when you are only a plot let's say light skinned women or the most light version of blackness or Asian whatever then you enhance the colorism thing, yeah, could you maybe for the listener explain what colorism? yeah, colorism, i think don't think there's the dutch word for it, yeah, colorism, but uh, it's me, yeah, it sounds, it means um, people of one of the same rays are being treated different when their skin tone is lighter, exactly, the overall idea is the the the like a positive discrimination of people who look more. white, yeah, exactly, and not only in in skin color, but also in hair structure. yeah, we're going to talk a little bit more about hair later. i i just wanted to ask you one more thing, do you feel like um, there's been like, or maybe could you name a few positive initiatives that you've seen or maybe you have also been involved in in the past years that did make a change or that did create a more inclusive fashion scene? um, you're allowed to say no, yeah, it's always difficult, well, I'm not that positive, and I see little things changed, but what we see is there is one positive thing that is uh changing, and then the so one one step forward and we take two step back, so overall I don't see that much change to be to be honest, um, I think it's more um, that pe people and magazines sometimes want to advocate or or... showcase the idea of being diverse and inclusion instead of truly being inclusive and and embracing diversity. i think that's uh, i think that that is something that we see and... "I'm still yeah, as I said before, disappointed in the whole industry, because they are really not taking this whole topic uh seriously, they there are hardly ever uh conversations or or events surround surrounded uh about these topics or um, I mean as i have been uh, I'm being invited to talk about this uh in in in TV uh media or in in in cultural or musea within museums." but um, i have only in 12 years of activism, i have only done one workshop for a magazine, one masterclass for a magazine, one yeah, and uh, and well, i have been, i have been part of the l um, they have every year, they have a course for uh, want to be magazine people, and the last few years i was part of that course also, i think well that says it all, no, yeah, it says a lot, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of... Yeah, fear, maybe there's a little fear and a lot of um, a lot of fear and also, yeah, I don't know what it is, I the idea that well, we know what, we, no one tells us what to do, it's a lot of arrogance also, I think, yeah, and um, I think that's what it is, yeah, yeah, I think so too, I want to, maybe there's there was this um, I'm just, I'm just wondering what you, what you think of this, I read about this recently, there was uh the French parliament actually approved a bill aimed at ending hair discrimination, and I think you also have been, well speaking out about hair discrimination, could you maybe tell me a little bit about this phenomenon? yeah, yeah, this uh, this is a is a lord and it has to go to the to the another to the court, maybe it has not been u but they are working on it and um in my point of view it's um it's it's a variation of the African of the American crown act you know about it right and this is a a law that was being installed in several states to protect black people especially black people with with natural hair or traditional hairstyles from discrimination on the work in the workspace yes so this law was especially and totally and only for black people the French uh law is for uh also for white people with red hair or people who wear a mohawk, that's interesting, so it's an offsworking, yeah, yeah, from from the American law, yeah, but still i think it's uh, it's a good thing, because could you tell me a little bit about hair discrimination, how does this come about, yeah, how does, well it has to do with with with colonialism obviously and with eurocentric beauty standards and eurocentric standards of what professionalism is um for the book uh, i wrote, i go wrote a book in to 10 10 years ago, i covered a book on on hair, black hair, called little black hair book, i like that, and um, for the book we interviewed several people about their hairstyle, and um, several of them were sharing the fact that they were being ' um, well, picked out by their by their manager, because they said, well, that hair is not professional, it's not representative, you can't wear that hair like this, and that hair was let's say an afro, natural style afro or someone had was been a little bit more creative, and uh, the idea is still that uh, professional hair is straight or put back or it, it is, being controlled hair and contained a contained yeah and it has nothing to do with a big afro or whatever and um everyone can have his her or their preference obviously but in these cases people were being told well um i would love to give you this promotion but i can't do that with this hair so their hairstyle their natural hair was holding them back because of some racist, well, let's put it like that, racist uh, managers, well, I do feel it is quite racist to consider a certain hairstyle that is, well, dominantly white, when your hair is straight, to be professional as opposed to a hairstyle that is for example, a natural looking afro, to be unprofessional, I mean, who gets to decide, yeah, yeah, that that's totally the problem, and also when you realize - a lot of people have been straightening their hair for. for centuries and it's not that healthy, it it is being uh connected to all kinds of of variant cancer also studies show the the the the the proof is not there but there's research about it going on, yeah, but then I mean, apart from that, it's a hell of a job right, it's it's sort of like a job upon your job to be able to have like representative hair, it is, and it's it has to do with suppressing a part of yourself, and when you do that by choice, everyone is free to experiment with hair obviously, but when you have to do that because you want a certain job or you want to maintain a certain job, well that's... 'm that's that can't be the case, yes, so that's why I'm uh, I sort of applaud the French uh law, and uh, although in France are there are more problems in relation to racism, that needs to be tackled obviously, that's that's the case everywhere, yes, and people say, well, that's typically French or American, but also in our country that there's something like hair discrimination, yes, but I don't think that um, a law would' help in our case, i think talking about it is uh way better because well and also let's be honest in in the united states there in several states the law is there but people are still being discriminated again well this is of course the difficult thing you can sort of design a law and then still people will discriminate and have their biases but but i do feel like it's a it's a step right also i mean it's it's it's it's also it's taking a stand as a country i has to say like this is something that we do not tolerate yeah and we we we acknowledge that there is a problem and that's something that people in our country in the neighlands don't always see as a problem people say well she's being uh gepest yeah bullet bullied yeah bullet is bigger now she's being uh arrest of whatever being bullet because of the fact that she has an arrow but i have red hair and i'm being bullet also people really think that that's but that's not the same obviously no no so maybe that's also why you feel a little bit you know yeah that's why i think well okay the french they are doing their best but well i think it's you are comparing to things that are not the same but i can also understand why they have broad the american law because otherwise maybe it wouldn't go through the yeah of course to the law makers yeah yeah yeah i can imagine well jenis i'm i'm just wondering like um maybe for listeners who feel like "i want to educate myself more on this subject, i want to learn more about diversity and inclusion in fashion and what it means, what what can what can you, do you have any tips for them? uh, well, one of the big plusses of our times is are the social media, and you can find everything almost there, and obviously you have to filter and you have to to know what to taken uh, what to be taken serious, but a very good uh" website maybe i can recommend is uh fashion and race database from kimberly denkins that's also a little bit uh well she's an an academic in the i forgot and she shares a lot of uh information and a lot of uh articles and um readable uh stuff um that's really uh good i think but it's not only about fashion right because fashion is not being born from nothing it's it's it's It's um, it's a product also from the industry, so I think you have to be aware of where the times we are living, we live in and talk to people who don't look like you and make friends with them and yeah, just be aware of all of the different shapes and sizes and colors and everything humans can come in and and talk and and and especially listen, learn, read uh, there's so much to... explore and I think uh, it truly will make this world a better place where you are more able to see the beauty of others, that's nice, although you are not super hopeful, maybe in your activism or a little bit disappointed here and there, this is a nice and hopeful ending, thank you so much Jennis, it's very nice to talk to you, welcome, thank you, thanks.