Sylvia Holla: Aesthetic Labor in the Modelling Industry

Doortje: My name is Doortje Smithuijsen and in this podcast I will be investigating aesthetic capital because next the more known forms of capital like social capital and cultural capital there's also something that is called aesthetic capital. It captures the way we look and the way these looks sort of define our class and our chances in society. And well, due to the rise of social media and the increased visibility of our physical appearance, this aesthetic capital is becoming increasingly determinant for our social opportunities. Therefore I would really like to investigate this form of capital with all kinds of researchers, some are from the VU (Vrije Universiteit Amsterdam), some are from different areas of this society, and together in this podcast we will investigate what this aesthetic capital is and how it shapes our society today. Welcome, everyone, to this new episode of the connected world podcast, a podcast in which we investigate aesthetic capital and the way it changes our role in society and the way we live our lives. And today, I am joined by Sylvia Holla, she is a sociologist, and she is a postdoc researcher at the Rijk Universiteit von Groningen. And Sylvia, you have obtained your PhD, it was already in 2018: On the subjects, beauty work self, how fashion models experienced their aesthetic labor. So your whole PhD was about this theme you named aesthetic labor? And I'm very curious to know, what is this? Actually? Just a very broad question to begin with. Sylvia Holla: Yeah, aesthetic labor is a very central theoretical concept in the book, and in the research. It's really about bodywork, it's about working on your body, but also doing some emotional labor and portraying an attractive aesthetic self, physically, but also emotionally and also personally. So it's really about crafting yourself towards certain aesthetic standards, certain beauty standards that are valid or current in a certain context. And the context that I researched was the fashion modeling industry of Europe. So I went to Paris, and I did also research in Amsterdam and in Warsaw in Poland. Doortje: Yes and you say that it's a physical labor, but it's also an emotional labor, am I understanding that correctly? Sylvia Yeah. Doortje: So these two links? Doortje: Yeah, yeah, more or less. I would say, of course, the most obvious form of aesthetic labor is purely physical. So you're doing things or you're not doing things to shape your appearance, your outward appearance. But this also takes emotional effort. It takes self control, it takes discipline. And especially for fashion models it's not only about the body- of course, the body is very central, in this line of work - but it's also about being a specific person or personality. Doortje: I guess exactly: when I think of a fashion model, you know, they are super skinny, and they look perfect, but they never tell you "Well, this takes a lot of work, actually." It's always like it comes natural to them. Sylvia And also being a model is also about being easygoing, about being perky, maybe a little bit light in terms of how to in terms of interacting with other professionals on the set. It's your role to also blend in and to be easygoing and to be nice to work with, because that's also a way to get to get the job and to get the job done in a nice way with other people around you. And also to be to be asked back for another project. Doortje: Was there a certain moment or a certain I don't know, thing you saw or certain development that made you think, "Wow, I really want to study aesthetic labor." Speaker 1 Yeah, well, at the time that that we were doing this research, so I didn't do it on my own, we did it together with a research group. Giselinde Kuipers was actually my supervisor, she was also in this podcast. Doortje: Yes she was the first guest actually. Sylvia Yeah, yeah. So she really guided me through this whole research, which was really nice because I was doing fieldwork in Paris. And sometimes I was also a little bit lost. So she was very supportive and helpful in that. So we did it in a group. And when we did this, we really started to see that looks, were becoming more and more important in society in general. So I think this is a development that has been going on for a longer time. But when we, when we started this project, it was it was becoming really obvious that we are increasingly judging other people based on their looks, and also judging ourselves and presenting ourselves in a very aesthetic way. So our physical appearance is really foregrounded and becoming more and more dominant in how we present ourselves and how we see and judge others. And of course, social media is a big part of this. But it's not only confined to that, it's also becoming a more important part of the labor market. So for for many forms of work- also forms of work where looks are at first glance not important at all- aesthetics become more and more prevalent and important in the way that we see someone as a good worker, or a good boss, or a good manager or a good teacher. So the importance and the prevalence of appearance was a reason for me to look at the profession where this is actually very central, a very explicit in, in the job. Doortje: But did you maybe also consider them as like, an extreme version of maybe all the workers? Sylvia Yeah, exactly that. And I think this is something that I was not that conscious of maybe at the beginning, but it became, during the research. And during the writing process, it became more and more obvious that fashion models are actually an extreme case of what we are all doing to ourselves. Doortje: So could you say that actually everyone performs a certain kind of aesthetic labor when they- Sylvia Definitely yeah, we all do aesthetic labor. Doortje: In a work field, but also maybe in a personal space? Sylvia Well, especially I think in our personal lives, you know, in our private lives. I think, you know, the thing about aesthetic labor is that it really seeps into your life. So whether you do it professionally, in a direct sense, like fashion models, or people who work for television, or if you whether you do it more implicitly, or with an indirect motivation. For example, if you're a teacher, and you want to be representative, or you work for a certain brand, and you want to be representative for that brand, then it might be less explicit but nonetheless. Or even if you just do it for yourself, or if you're an Instagramer, or a blogger. Asthetic labor requires I think 24/7 attention in many ways. So if you see the type of very concrete practices that are part of our aesthetic labor, it's about food, it's about exercising, but it's also about how many hours do you sleep. So what you see in fashion modeling that every every bite that they eat, or that they do not eat also has a physical purpose. So there's a consideration of the physical effects of every every bite. Doortje: It's all part of an aesthetic idea or an aesthetic goal that is sort of perceived as aspirational. Sylvia Yeah so aesthetic labor really becomes a way of living, a way of life or lifestyle, if you will. And I think this is valid for many of us. Doortje: And what is the difference between aesthetic labor and, well, any other kinds of labor? Sylvia Well, I would say that the aesthetic labor is particularly intrusive. In the sense that it really colonizes also our daily life. So, aesthetic labor is really hard to delimit in terms of time. So you cannot say "I'm an aesthetic laborer from nine to six, and after that I'm doing other things". No, it's either you do it or you don't do it. If you do it, it really involves all of you. So like I said, it also involves the amount of hours that you sleep. And of course, that while you're sleeping, you're not consciously performing aesthetic labor. But it all taps into it. And it all requires- Doortje: Determination, I guess. Sylvia Definitely. Yeah so a lot of self discipline, and a lot of self control, and a lot of self scrutiny. And so even, you know, the choice of going out, and not paying attention to the time and the hour that you go home and the amount of drinks that you have, it all has also an aesthetic consideration. And I think that many, many young people, or young adults are living their lives in this way. And maybe the consideration is not always directly aesthetic, but also has to do with health reasons, for example. But that also indirectly, or secondarily, for many people also taps into how they look. Doortje: Yeah, but it's also quite a quite a self control kind of thing right? Sylvia Yeah, definitely. Absolutely. Doortje: And that's maybe also, is aesthetic labor also a way to sort of externalize that self control, like a way of showing others how controlled you are? Sylvia Not necessarily. Especially for fashion models, there are different ways to perform aesthetic labor. And in the field of fashion modeling, especially at the high end at the centers of fashion modeling, you know, there's this logic to the game of fashion and fashion modeling that beauty has to exist in and for itself, and then it kind of has to come effortlessly. So there, you see that the aesthetic labor that is that is performed by fashion models, becomes extra complicated, because it's hidden. It's not legitimate, it's not valid to say "I'm making many- I'm making an effort to, and I'm putting in many hours to look this way". So there, you see that the aesthetic labor, it's meant to come off as effortless, to be almost non existent, Doortje: I feel like this is actually just so wrong. Like I was, I was reading this book, maybe you've read it, too, it's by Emily Ratajkowski. Maybe you know, her, she's like a super famous model right now. And she was actually super honest about it. She said, like, "I'm thinking about the way I look every minute of every hour of every day, it's always on my mind. I'm always self conscious. I'm always insecure." And I was really sort of relieved in reading this, because I felt like okay, you look great. But I would have been more annoyed if she would have said, Oh, I honestly really don't care. It all comes natural to me. And yeah, this is just how I woke up. Sylvia Yeah, I woke up like this. I don't think this song was out at the time that I was doing fieldwork. Yeah, it's definitely very characteristic of the things that some models at the centers of this of this field, the way they spoke about their work and how, how it really fits their personality and who they were because they, they woke up like this. But on the other side of the specter, I also encountered models that were very explicit, very honest and very clear about the amount of work and hours and effort and sweat and tears they put in to applying to those very high standards of slenderness of youthfulness, etc. And in my research, I call those the pragmatic models. Doortje: Yeah, yeah, exactly. You have you have three types of models. I think you said you have: the natural model, the healthy model and also the pragmatic model, what are the differences? Sylvia So they all perform aesthetic labor. So they all have to apply to the standards of the modeling industry. And these aesthetic standards vary somewhat. If you compare, for example, high end fashion modeling to, to commercial or low-end fashion modeling, of course the beauty standards are somewhat variable but all in all, not that different. In the high end there, the models were more slender, more pale, more white a little bit taller, and also on average a little bit younger. But all these models they perform aesthetic labor. Girls and boys, models in the periphery, models are at the center of the of the industry. But the way that they spoke about it so that the narrative about their work and also the value system that they refer to, in speaking about their work, were very different. Yeah. So the models that referred to themselves as natural models, they refer to the moral system of authenticity. Like, this is me, I am real, my personhood is very close to what I am showing what I am performing in this field and what I'm doing what I'm practicing. And then you have the healthy models, and they're quite close to the natural models, but they substitutes the purpose of beauty: so they substitute the purpose of beauty for beauty's sake for health. So these models, they told me the story "In general, like, I take care of myself, I make sure I'm healthy, I eat healthy, I exercise and I sleep well. And these are all good things that I do for for my health, I want to feel good. And because I feel good on the inside, I just look good on the outside." So by accident, I look good on the outside, and this is in line with the standards of fashion modeling. And then you have the pragmatic models, and I encountered most of those in Amsterdam and in Warsaw, which are more peripheral areas of fashion modeling, so to speak. Doortje: So it's less like high fashion. Sylvia Yeah, less high fashion and there's less at stake. So there's also less urgency to really echo this dominant logic of the game of beauty for beauty sake. So it's a little less interested in the stakes of this field that are so high at the center. And they were very pragmatic, like: "Okay, if I have to lose three or five or six pounds, that's fine, I will do it. I will stop eating for two weeks if it's necessary. But in the end, I have a very good commercial contract. And I get paid a shitload of money when I get the job done. Afterwards, I can eat again. And I have I bought a house for myself, and next month, I'm buying a house for my mother. And this is all worth it." So they sort of substitute the purpose of beauty for beauty sake, with beauty for money. Doortje: That's so interesting that you find such a difference in the narrative that the people actually told you, and they're with also themselves. I mean, did you did you find is this like, just because Dutch people are more rational in a way? Or is this a is this a geographical thing? Or what do you think? Sylvia I really think it has to do with the structure of the fields. Because I've thought about this a lot. Like does this have to do with some national/cultural property or attitudes. But I rather think that it has to do with your position in the field, and also at the point embracing this position. So I think that I've also met models from Poland, working in Paris, echoing the natural model narrative. So if you are at the center of this game, of this field, and you want to be successful, you have to invest yourself in it fully. And this also means that as a model, I guess you don't want to lose face, and you want you want to believe in the logic of this game, and you want to believe that it all makes sense and that it is all worth it. Of course, in hindsight, I also spoke to models who had worked at the center. In Milan, or in Paris or in New York, and hindsight nobody holds on to this narrative of natural modelhood, because beauty is elusive, everybody loses in the end, because you cannot maintain these physical standards. If you become an adult, your body changes. So it's not possible to maintain it, to uphold this narrative. But the pragmatic models, they are more, they're more prevalent in the periphery. And I guess they just embrace their position of more commercial models who have less status in the field as a whole but they do make more money then high end editorial models, and they just pragmatically embrace their position. And I think there, I think there the labor conditions for these models in the periphery are actually better than for the models at the center. Because they are isolated and lonely and are trying to uphold the story about their work and who they are and how this is related. And that's really hard to uphold to maintain this coherent self that kind of falls together with the work that they do. I think this is something that also has an isolating effect on a model. Doortje: Yeah, well, exactly I'm also thinking like, if you make more money, then it's maybe also easier to sort of, well be honest about the fact that it just takes a lot of work to look like this. And if you don't make a lot of money, and you kind of sort of living in a sort of fairy tale. And while living in it, you're actually always wondering, like, "Is this a fairy tale or is this a nightmare?". You also want to sort of keep up this story of not having to put in a lot of work. Sylvia Yeah, I'm not sure if it has to do with the amount of money that you make. But it really has to do with, it's a choice to also to believe in what you're doing. It's almost a necessity to believe in the fact that what you're doing has a purpose and that it makes sense. And if you see how much effort these models, especially at the center, how much effort they are making, and how much they are putting their whole lives. investing their whole lives into this goal of becoming a top model... It's almost impossible to say, "I don't believe in the rules of this game, I don't believe in this dominant logic of beauty is the highest goal and it's important in and of itself." You cannot do this work if you don't believe. Doortje: Is it also a story that is sort of directed towards the consumers of fashion or high fashion, I guess, I mean, there's an increasing amount of interviews and, you know, YouTube videos, in which these super famous models are being interviewed. And always they are shown exactly, like you just just said, like they they are sort of happy, go lucky kind of girls, you know. Oh, I'm just so happy to be in Paris and such a great life. And, well, "Let's have a croissant I don't care". You know, that's the kind of girl that you get shown right, this is also like a sort of like a sales pitch. Sylvia I think that there's definitely an interest, if you look at the industry, to portray itself as a nice, humane and kind and glamorous and wonderful place to work and to be. Something that you really want to be part of. So of course, they're not invested in showing the downsides. And models are also trained and instructed to do. To be positive towards the outside and to be perky and, and not realistic. But another part is also, especially at the centers of this industry, it's a winner take all market. So there are very there's a handful of models that that achieves a top model status and their life is actually very glamorous. They do actually make a lot of money. They are these symbolic carriers of beauty within the field and towards the outside, they're like, you know, put on a pedestal and their life is great. But because it's a winner take all market. And there are a few models that actually achieve to have this great glamorous, rich life. There are 1000s and 1000s of boys and girls that are also working at the center of the field, in a high status industry but do not achieve this top model status and they are actually, they are hustling. They have debts with our agencies, because they live in model houses and they have to pay their model house rent, which is really high. And they have to work that off with projects. So with fashion shoots and shows and they cannot really eat what they want, but they also cannot really be honest about how much effort they're actually putting in. There's very little solidarity and friendship amongst models because the competition is very fierce. So it's quite hard to become friends with people in your own line of work. So it soon becomes very lonely and very arduous to do this job at the center if you don't reach this top. Doortje: Yeah, well, you also already mentioned it briefly. But you say that it's hard to sort of connect with other models, because it's this winner take all sort of model, or, you know, system in which only a handful sort of survive, so to speak. And you also mentioned in your research, that this is a form alienation. So maybe it's not only sort of getting in estranged with other people, but also with yourself right Sylvia Yeah, so, you know, I think modeling and fashion modeling they are cultural creative industries, right. So in these fields creative process is happening and models contribute to this. So this is something that is in terms of marks, yeah, it's a way of fulfilling the self, right, being creative in your work and creating an idea and making it real in material reality, let's. And this is a collective process that is happening in fashion modeling industry, where designers and stylists and models and bookers they're all working together, you know, makeup artists, and hair artists, they're all working together to create a certain image or a certain vibe during a show. So, this is this is really a creative process, but the end product is something that is not decided upon by the fashion model. So a fashion model, of course, embodies an idea but the creative contribution is very limited. So, a model does not have input in the way he or she looks in the end. So there is a form of alienation from the product, from the final product itself, because the contribution and the the input that model can give is limited. Doortje: Yeah. But I'm also wondering, like, how is this different from any other kind of media work? Sylvia I think here you see that, you know, this is a very valid point for many jobs. And yeah, especially when Marx was writing his work he was he was looking at people working in factories. And they were completely estranged or alienated from the final product. They were screwing in screws into something... unrecognizable object that was a small part of something that will come out in the end, but they didn't have a clue what they were creating. Because it was it was so cut up into small steps and small pieces of work that were repetitive day in day out that they became alienated from the process and from the product. But they were also working in a way that it was impossible to have human contact with their co-workers. And these things are in a different way also valid for fashion models. So what I said earlier, the competition is very fierce. So there's not much friendship and solidarity between fashion models. Of course, friendships do occur, thank God but it's difficult. And it's, it's never Yeah, it's, it's never easy. Yeah. Doortje: Yeah. You Also did quite some research on food, on this topic. You also coin sort of the idea like eating like a model. How would you describe this way of eating? Sylvia: Well, I would say that in the fashion modeling industry, there's something of an entire, I would say, constructed belief system around food. With many food rules and beliefs or myths. Myths about food that are partly true or untrue. Sometimes more or less true, but yeah. These rules, it's a challenge to live by them, let's say. And I think many of those rules are also current in the rest of society. But in fashion modeling, they're quite specific and detailed. Doortje: When I was reading about this, actually it's almost like a moral compass, moral component that are being sort of well connected to certain kinds of food. Almost seems like a religion in which certain foods are looked upon as good and some are bad. It's almost like the Bible telling you what to do and what not to do. Why is this, where does this like extreme sort of morality come from? Sylvia: Yeah, that's a good question. I think we, you can see, you can signal this also in society at large. We are all very moral about what we put into our bodies. And we are very judgmental. "You are eating unhealthy things or you know, uh, only eat, eat a lot of fat, fast, fast food, for example. So I think food has become very moral because the self has become very central. And it's become kind of an imperative to take care of the self as good as possible. Like it's, it's kind of egocentric. But this imperative for, for fashion models is very strong. And of course, for multiple reasons and also for reasons that are a little bit extra or additional to the way that you and I look at food. But of course, their income is dependent on how they eat or the extent to which they can control their food and control their food intake their livelihood depends on it in that way. Doortje: So it's kind of a blunt question, but isn't the thing exactly for, especially for like these high fashion models who are, well, still, despite all the body positivity movements, et cetera, we seem to sort of see rising and falling every few years. They are still very skinny. if there is one rule to live by it is do not eat. Sylvia: Yeah. Or eat the right things. Things in a very specific way or at a specific time. So the rules, I can give some examples, but they are, they are multiple and very interesting. So there's this rule, amongst high end fashion models that fruits are actually, most fruits are forbidden because they contain too much sugar. But If you eat fruit, it has to be watermelon. But if you eat watermelon, you cannot eat it after three o'clock because then your body cannot process all the sugar anymore and then it becomes fat. Doortje: So it's, it's, it's like scientifically proven or? Sylvia: I didn't, I didn't double check all the food rules based on their scientific evidence and truthfulness. The food rules are so much more complicated than "you can eat this, but you cannot eat that". It's about timing. It's about specific subgroups of food. Doortje: So is this like a sort of, like, like a sort of oral history between models? Like, are these rules being passed on one model to the other? Like don't eat watermelon. Sylvia: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there's also this idea, like there are a lot of parties, of course, that models go to after a successful shoot or show. There's a wrap party in fashion weeks, you know, there's this vibe of also upholding a little bit this glamorous idea of being a fashion model. So a lot of partying going on, of course, all these people are also very young and they want to live a little, but then of course there's the issue of drinking alcohol. So what kind of alcohol can you drink? And what is most fitting with a model diet? So vodka or a vodka soda with no sugars. That's the safest and I think also most prevalent thing that models tend to drink. But then there's also the question of when there's only beer or wine to choose from, from what do you take? So the amount of calories for a glass of beer and a glass of wine are more or less the same. So wine contains more calories, but you drink a smaller glass. But then you have the issue of the hormonal effects of beer. So there's this idea that beer stimulates the production, the body's own production of the hormone estrogen, which is a feminine hormone, which stimulates the body to store fat around the waist and breasts. So it is believed that men who drink a lot of beer they develop men breast, for example, and they have this beer tummy. And, I'm sure that maybe part of this story is true or true in some situations or context, but it's kind of stunning and amazing that when models are going out, these are the things that are going through their minds. It's not very relaxing and enjoyable to go out, even though there is this vibe and this image towards the outside world, modeling is also a lot of fun. And it's also about going out and adventurous and glamorous. But when you listen to them telling these kind of stories and these kind of considerations, I was also admiring them in a way. You are, strong that you are doing this and upholding this. I don't know if it's strength, but it's perseverance. Doortje: Determination, definitely. Yeah, for sure. It Really reminds me of this story. Maybe you've heard it before. It's about the Victoria's Secret show. Throughout my entire childhood, there was like once a year, this Victoria's Secret show with these super skinny, very beautiful models walking down the runway in lingerie. And then at one point, I think it was like, well, maybe six or seven years ago. With the body positivity movement coming up, it was seen as not very right to send down these very skinny models down the runway and sort of make them into a role model for young girls. What happened was not necessarily did the bodies of the models change, what changed was the narrative around them. So maybe 20 years ago, they were just, you know, skinny, no questions asked or whatever. Now they had this whole narrative of them being super healthy and like doing sports all the time and like heavy weight lifting. And they, they did all these videos with them picking up very quite heavy weights. But their bodies I mean they stayed the same. They looked exactly the same. Sylvia: Well, I think they chose a narrative, a modelhood narrative that, one of those that I found also during my research, that is most fitting, and most accepted as a legitimate narrative in society in general. Doortje: Yeah. So, so it used to be skinny and now it's healthy. But the looks are still the same. Sylvia: The effect, the outcome is the same, but the intention of the behavior is deemed more legitimate because how can you be against living healthy and treating yourself in a good way. Doortje: I mean, Sylvia, like researching all this, don't you ever get like quite depressed? Sylvia: Well, not depressed, but there was a point that I became quite cynical. Especially because many of the models that I spoke to were quite young, so they were in their twenties and younger. And what I saw were people that were working really hard and sometimes successful, sometimes less successful, but they were struggling to kind of maintain a coherent experience of self. So to explain it, it's related to this concept of alienation that became surprisingly central to my work, which was really not something that I intended or expected. But what I saw was that people who are really struggling to tell a story about themselves in which they kind of fall together with the work that they do, that it's close to them and that it's logical and that it's really fitted to them and who they are and how they feel. And at the same time, you see and observe, as a researcher, a labor practice that is so difficult to uphold and maintain, and that is actually so far from being a creative and autonomous person. This was something that touched me the most. Doortje: And it's also, I think it's also about a question about personal freedom, right? I mean, I guess I kind of had the same experience: I did a lot of research on like influencers and vloggers and YouTubers, and all they talk about is like being free and like being totally, well, you were your own boss and creating your own kind of work. And in watching them work, all they did was following directions from others and like looking at other, other people online and copying them. And it was so unfree. Sylvia: I think this is a difficult balance. And I think again, what I saw here in the fashion modeling industry is something that most people probably struggle with exactly in their line of work. So on the one hand, it's really nice to work In a way that you feel part of something bigger and you're doing something together and you're working with others to create something great. So I think many people really like actually to work in a team or to work with others. I think most people don't really like to work totally, totally alone themselves and alone. But at the same time, I also think- and this is also something that I also experienced in my own work life, having a sufficient amount of autonomy and kind of a certain level of control and leeway to decide and make your own decisions about how you do things in your work. It's really important also, not only to be happy as a worker, but also to be happy as a person. Work became so central to who we are and on top of that, beauty and how we look is so central to who we are. So then if I look at fashion models, and I see how these two aspects are really defining who they are, but at the same time, they have little to no control over the process, over the beauty standards that they have to apply to. And the practices that they have to do to adhere to these beauty standards, they have to happen in secret behind closed doors because they have to attain it naturally in some way. This is when I really started to feel bad for these people. They're also young and you know, alone and away from their family most of the time. Doortje: And it's also so, I mean, it shows so very clear how people internalize all these sort of expectations, you know, and they turn them into a personal narrative while it's not their own. Sylvia: There's a whole industry. There's a whole game. There's a whole field upholding this, these beliefs and these ideas and it, the disciplining power that comes from these, these norms is huge. Doortje: To conclude our conversation, when we zoom out and we sort of look back at the fashion industry and the models that you spoke to and we see them again in the way we earlier discussed as a sort of, I can't really say it in other terms, but as a model for all our society or as a maquette or, you know, as a sort of, well, maybe a very enlarged version of the way we all seem to live. What does your research tell us about society? You feel? Sylvia: Well, that our society is becoming more and more aestheticized. Mm hmm. So we are all more, not just obsessive about how we look, but it actually matters more and more how you look. So it's not something that we just tell ourselves. It's not an illusion that beauty pays off. It does pay off. People who look, who are found attractive and good looking by other people, they are more successful. Not only in their romantic or sexual lives, but in many domains that are not even that much related to appearance and beauty. And that's also something that makes me a little bit sad because it really renders beauty an important marker of inequality. And of course you can do aesthetic labor and work on how you look to some extent. But For some people they can do so much aesthetic labor as they can, but they will never become a fashion model or they will never become attractive in the conventional way that we define. So it's just unfair it's just really unfair. And it's just another layer of unfairness and inequality to our social life, to our society. And it kind of makes me sad and angry at the same time. I wish beauty wasn't this important. Doortje: Yeah. Well, same, I guess. And I would also wish that for all these models that you spoke to and that are probably still struggling to- Sylvia: I Don't think they're models anymore. They're too old now. Doortje: That's sad and good in both ways, I guess. Thank you so much, Sylvia. Thank you very much for this conversation. Sylvia: And it was lovely talking to you. Thank you. Thanks.